Divisions need more than one sad, lonely guy

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Axe99

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Check this picture
View attachment 147711

I had a thought. They now get the counters to scale with zoom. Why not get the Models to scale with zoom. At higher zooms the models go to one like vanilla.

But then at this scale there could be a graphic representation of miniatures in the provinces. Tanks and infantry firing away. Arty at the rear.
If other specialist arms present that could be there too.

Would look epic !

Aye :). We might be seeing different things, but if those models get much smaller, they go from being French and German troops to generic (particularly if they get small enough to have tanks and arty in there too). Now, I actually wouldn't mind generic 'army' instead of unique 'soldier' models (although, on balance, I still prefer models, and there's no small chance I'll personally play with a counter mod after too long in any event, so my contribution here could be somewhat academic :)) - I think both have their merits - but I think we need to be realistic, in that we can have one or the other, but not both (at least clearly). Say, for example, we put six models in a province - to still be able to see the terrain and airfields, forts, etc, I'd wager the soldiers would now need to be the size of one of the model's legs, or therabouts. Add in arty and tanks, and you're looking at even smaller soldiers, and tanks maybe the size of the model's head, which isn't going to provide a lot of pixels for detail. Not saying it's a bad idea, but that by getting one thing we'd be losing another.
 

KiwiNoob

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I disagree. You could easily put 3 in there with only a small size reduction and they would fit nicely. A small size reduction would make very little difference in the ability to see the uniforms.
 
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Axe99

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I disagree. You could easily put 3 in there with only a small size reduction and they would fit nicely. A small size reduction would make very little difference in the ability to see the uniforms.

I think you could still retain more detail with 3 guys (although your original post has 20-30, edited down to 4-5 - so I wasn't actually commenting on the proposal of 3 guys, because that wasn't the general thrust of the discussion - Fabius was proposing infantry, tanks and arty all in one province, and there's no way around that without losing a stack of detail). The other thing to keep in mind is that humans are a good deal taller than wider, but you need the models to only take up so much horizontal space before it'll get difficult to see what's in each province (looking at what we've seen now, I expect it'll already become a little difficult to see what's in each province when things get hectic in smaller province zones). I could be wrong of course, it's all theorycrafting :). On the positive side, visual mods won't even break ironman, so there's nothing stopping people modding multi-model units in :).
 

KiwiNoob

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NATO COUNTERS!

The idea is to have all this going on behind the counters so it doesn't affect or relate to them directly.

I think you could still retain more detail with 3 guys (although your original post has 20-30, edited down to 4-5 - so I wasn't actually commenting on the proposal of 3 guys, because that wasn't the general thrust of the discussion - Fabius was proposing infantry, tanks and arty all in one province, and there's no way around that without losing a stack of detail).

It's true - the suggested number of guys does keep changing willy-nilly. Maybe 3+ men with 1+ tanks is a better number to go with (maybe drop a man if a tank is there if room is a massive issue). The idea in general is good though, more guys = better.

If you gave me the option of a bunch of smaller guys doing tons of cool stuff or one big boring one where I can see his uniform more clearly I know which one I'll pick ;)

Say NO! to the lonely man. Say YES! to squads with awesome animations, explosions and SFX to go with.
 

Fulmen

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Given how units are represented in other Paradox titles, 1 is fine.

Though I'd still probably prefer NATO counters without sprites. Not sure if switching counter type actually does away with sprites in HoI4.
 
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fabius

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Axe99. Yes, agreed it is a trade off from minutia detail like buttons on model's jacket for a more epic panoramic view.
I see there is an good idea for more models like 2, 3 or 4. Yes I would prefer that to single guy.

That said I also reckon they could go further. Still keep bigger models at more zoomed out levels- so nothing lost.
But close in I believe there could be more EPIC feel that there really is a battle taking place on the map. I post some concept shots for an idea of the feel, not what I would anticipate as full translation. But at max there is room in provinces for micro models. People could still see airfields etc under them.

minis.jpg


beach.jpg



This game manages it well.


UGG_Big_Battle_4.jpg


Ultimate-General-Gettysburg-zoom.jpg
 
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Anton Rex

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Axe99. Yes, agreed it is a trade off from minutia detail like buttons on model's jacket for a more epic panoramic view.
I see there is an good idea for more models like 2, 3 or 4. Yes I would prefer that to single guy.

That said I also reckon they could go further. Still keep bigger models at more zoomed out levels- so nothing lost.
But close in I believe there could be more EPIC feel that there really is a battle taking place on the map. I post some concept shots for an idea of the feel, not what I would anticipate as full translation. But at max there is room in provinces for micro models. People could still see airfields etc under them.

View attachment 147950

View attachment 147951


This game manages it well.


View attachment 147948

View attachment 147949
Just Looked at the steam page and holy crap did it look great!
I don´t think that Paradox can implement such combat but the Devs certainly can take inspiration from the effects and the unit design.
Seriously it looks awesome :D
 

fabius

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Just Looked at the steam page and holy crap did it look great!
I don´t think that Paradox can implement such combat but the Devs certainly can take inspiration from the effects and the unit design.
Seriously it looks awesome :D

Yes, not the same. That is US Civil War tactical rts after all. But I posted it to show the flavour. There's a reason why war movies throw in panoramic scenes

tank.jpg


There is little detail in those soldiers but the scene is much more epic and dynamic that if there was just one of them.
 
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Axe99

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Aye Fabius, I agree it's possible, although I'm not sure how much real estate you'll have to put things in. RUSE I'd say would be the best 'proof of concept' for how the models are, as that game allowed zooming a long way out (to the point I think you just had symbols on a high-level map) to zooming all the way in and seeing individual soldiers. It was an RTS, though, and had more real estate to show its models in. Either way, I doubt we'll see it at launch (and I'd rather the game wasn't delayed for the change).

I'm not trying to be contrarian, I just think that it might be a bit harder in practice than people are thinking. When I look at that unit in Strasbourg, there really isn't much more real estate to spread things out, and if the models are pushed too far to the edge then models/animations will clip with those in other provinces, which can get a bit messy. We'll see if the devs do it/it's modded in though, I could be wrong :).

I do like your idea of more models when zoomed out, where more space is available, and I think that's very much feasible :).
 

KiwiNoob

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Come on PDS, let us know if you'll consider it. Or at least rain on the parade and say it definitely wont happen because xyz. At least we'll know not to hold our breath.
 

ViKiNG-NoR

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I would like to have something like this. the hex in civ 5 is almost the same size as the provinces in HOI 4 so these units would be mutch better than one solder\tank. and you can see the different uniforms even if they ar smaller.
2015-12-15_00002.jpg
2015-12-16_00001.jpg
 
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Will Steel

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I would like to have something like this. the hex in civ 5 is almost the same size as the provinces in HOI 4 so these units would be mutch better than one solder\tank. and you can see the different uniforms even if they ar smaller. View attachment 148322 View attachment 148323

Are you using R.E.D. mod by any chance? Even Civ V didn't have that many units, but that mod made every unit have a lot of soldiers/tanks/helicopters/whatever the unit is about. With the mod it looks much more lively and spectacular.

Also, it is 4,000 BC and you are next to a river surrounded by luxury resources. Settle fast if you are aiming for a science victory.
 

Axe99

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The thing with Civ is that anyone doing modelling work knows the shape of the province is all the same. Realistically, due to various province shapes, you've got a good deal less space to play with in HoI4 (I'd say around a quarter of the space those models take up there).
 

illathid

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If it's not possible for the Devs then at the very least could they explain if it's moddable,
If possible then how?

Do a search here for threads by @Vonboe. I believe he did some test models with 3 tanks in province, has gotten custom models working in EU4, and is working on a mod for unique models for important minors.
 
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Anton Rex

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Do a search here for threads by @Vonboe. I believe he did some test models with 3 tanks in province, has gotten custom models working in EU4, and is working on a mod for unique models for important minors.
I have been folloving Vonboe for some time and while I am not entirely sure if he has.
He most certainly is our best hope should the Devs be unwilling or unable.

Perhaps he could make a mod that add five models?
 
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illathid

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