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Wilbry

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Apparently it has no relevance at all. It's just cosmetic design...I guess it helps you to organize your division better and whatnot, and makes it all nice, tidy and good looking.

It is technically a TO&E and is the same layout as used in real life (although not strictly in that time period).
So yes, while it is cosmetic, it actually serves a purpose of clearly displaying your division to you in a comprehensible manner that it is not just numbers - in this way it feels more authentic because it is more authentic (both in function and form).

So it has relevance, just not game mechanic relevance.
 

vector1

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I wanted to discuss the relevance of big vs small brigade designs. A few points

1) All infantry is far cheaper to produce than other equipment types
2) Stats from wiki shows that infantry contributes the highest HP
3) HP loss during combat is directly linked to equipment loss post combat rather than simulating individual loss per equipment in combat

For example, if I have a finite amount of tanks but far more INF/MOT equipment, having a single division of 4x ARM + 8 MOT might lead to higher ARM losses than 2 divisions of 2x ARM + 10 MOT since there's more total HP and less overall losses taken for the same combat. Similar things could occur when discussing ART/AT so spreading out the expensive equipment may be better than concentrating it.

This also depends on the actual combat losses modifiers in defines since HOI3 had terribly small losses during combat, and it took mods to correct those numbers into something more significant.

I know there are other benefits like hardness/breakthrough etc that change the balance, but I'm discussing this because previously in HOI3 armor brigades had the same combat menpower as infantry brigades typically, but here the decoupling of menpower used for building and combat HP suddenly makes tanks far more vulnerable to losses when they have 2HP or around 8% of infantry's 25 HP.

Does this mean that more slots in a division should be filled with INF type other than those used for separate brigade types to reduce overall losses in combat because of the new HP mechanic?
 
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Ricox

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It is technically a TO&E and is the same layout as used in real life (although not strictly in that time period).
So yes, while it is cosmetic, it actually serves a purpose of clearly displaying your division to you in a comprehensible manner that it is not just numbers - in this way it feels more authentic because it is more authentic (both in function and form).

So it has relevance, just not game mechanic relevance.

Yeah, that's what I meant. It makes it really understandable because it has real basis and organisation, but not in combat.

I like the new system a lot, adds plenty of flavor & roleplay opportunities as well.

I wanted to discuss the relevance of big vs small brigade designs. A few points

1) All infantry is far cheaper to produce than other equipment types
2) Stats from wiki shows that infantry contributes the highest HP
3) HP loss during combat is directly linked to equipment loss post combat rather than simulating individual loss per equipment in combat

For example, if I have a finite amount of tanks but far more INF/MOT equipment, having a single division of 4x ARM + 8 MOT might lead to higher ARM losses than 2 divisions of 2x ARM + 10 MOT since there's more total HP and less overall losses taken for the same combat. Similar things could occur when discussing ART/AT so spreading out the expensive equipment may be better than concentrating it.

This also depends on the actual combat losses modifiers in defines since HOI3 had terribly small losses during combat, and it took mods to correct those numbers into something more significant.

I know there are other benefits like hardness/breakthrough etc that change the balance, but I'm discussing this because previously in HOI3 armor brigades had the same combat menpower as infantry brigades typically, but here the decoupling of menpower used for building and combat HP suddenly makes tanks far more vulnerable to losses when they have 2HP or around 8% of infantry's 25 HP.

Does this mean that more slots in a division should be filled with INF type other than those used for separate brigade types to reduce overall losses in combat because of the new HP mechanic?

Just to note - it would not be a good idea to combine regular infantry with armor. It would likely need motorized/mechanized support (for the speed and, I believe, additional combat stats), unless you maybe wanted to combine slow super heavy tanks with infantry.

Infantry has much lower all-around stats and is generally weaker according to what's been said. So while tanks might have lower HP, they do have higher strength that makes up for it significantly and can reduce losses through shorter battles or such (which is great for breakthroughs and encirclement).

We should probably wait for the game to be released for an answer to this, though, because I don't think it has a good answer from what we've seen so far (since the gameplay videos don't really elaborate showing tests of battles depending on division build etc. etc., that needs to be done by players). The HP is only a stat that we're making assumptions on, we don't really know every single bit about how it works & interacts with other stats. For all we know, it might just be a balance measure to avoid making tanks heavily overpowered and maybe they're very strong even with low HP.

We're seeing that the stat exists, but we don't know yet every single detail about how it works under the hood, so I don't think a concrete answer can be given yet.
 

vector1

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I think they've been quite explicit on this point, HP replaces the old "strength" value and only tied to losses via a % of HP loss. For example, taking 1 HP loss as a 2HP tank would mean 50% of all tanks lost in combat and 250 menpower. Taking 1HP loss as a 25HP infantry brigade means losing 4% of infantry equipment and 40 menpower.

I'm guessing this is just purely a balance measure they're testing out because I've seen tanks with 10HP before in previous streams, so we shall see on D-Day!
 

Ricox

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I think they've been quite explicit on this point, HP replaces the old "strength" value and only tied to losses via a % of HP loss. For example, taking 1 HP loss as a 2HP tank would mean 50% of all tanks lost in combat and 250 menpower. Taking 1HP loss as a 25HP infantry brigade means losing 4% of infantry equipment and 40 menpower.

I'm guessing this is just purely a balance measure they're testing out because I've seen tanks with 10HP before in previous streams, so we shall see on D-Day!

I didn't know that, apologies, but that's still not full information. Do we know how other stats interact with HP? It could be that the other stats, like hardness, make HP loss much less likely to the point where it balances out the losses with infantry. And yeah, the low HP could have just been a balance test.
 

vector1

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As far as I know, shots fired and hit will reduce org and HP. I'm guessing there's a modifier that reduces shot damage to HP since we have a lot more soft attack than HP generally. After that we'll have to see how it works exactly once the game releases. Personally I think they might have found pure armor divisions too hard and powerful, so forcing players to use infantry type brigades (INF/MOT/MEC) to balance out HP feels like a game design decision rather than anything based on the actual strength of the tank.

If tanks/variants had so much stats + HP, I imagine spamming light SP ART for cheap mobile firepower + light tanks as early tank divisions would work too well. With the current stats (with a grain of salt) a 10 light tank + 10 light SP art of the 1934 variant has 700+ soft attack. If they had higher HP it might be too strong since you could produce a lot of cheap tanks in the first 3 years...
 

Bridger15

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Just to note - it would not be a good idea to combine regular infantry with armor. It would likely need motorized/mechanized support (for the speed and, I believe, additional combat stats), unless you maybe wanted to combine slow super heavy tanks with infantry.

One thing I was thinking about trying is to go for VERY early tiger tanks (I.E. start researching in 1936) and put one battalion in each of my infantry divisions by 1941. Who knows if i'll have the oil/factory slots to make it happen, but it would make for pretty damn formidable infantry divisions :p
 

vector1

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Looking at the amount of research needed it might work if you beelined the extra slots from day 1, but then you give up so much potential doctrine research, or any naval ambitions that GER may have had. I will certainly be sure to give it a shot as well :). HARM rushing used to be part of my core strategy as GER in HOI3 because it was so good.

On the other hand, I also think that spamming LARM2 SP ART/TD variant from day 1 will be the best way to bolster infantry divisions in terms of firepower, even more so if you choose to make a core MOT based strategy which it seems GER can easily afford. The speed bonuses will be very good against the AI with the overrun mechanism and no attack delay in HOI4.
 

Ricox

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One thing I was thinking about trying is to go for VERY early tiger tanks (I.E. start researching in 1936) and put one battalion in each of my infantry divisions by 1941. Who knows if i'll have the oil/factory slots to make it happen, but it would make for pretty damn formidable infantry divisions :p

Do note that you'll be falling behind in research in other fields. I also think that this could make some serious supply troubles + you'll lock out an entire brigade (you can't put infantry & tanks in the same brigade AKA column in the division designer - you'll have to either fill it with tanks or leave it empty). There's gotta be other disadvantages, but you should definitely later write what your success is with this strategy, could be interesting for an alternative non-serious play.
 

fredgiblet

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One thing I was thinking about trying is to go for VERY early tiger tanks (I.E. start researching in 1936) and put one battalion in each of my infantry divisions by 1941. Who knows if i'll have the oil/factory slots to make it happen, but it would make for pretty damn formidable infantry divisions :p

Making HARM/INF/INF/ART divisions in 3 was fun. They were slow but damn near unstoppable in good terrain.