Divisions & how they work?

[Ricox]

I've watched a lot of WWW videos and seen plenty of dev diaries, but just had a few questions for clarification since I don't really remember most of the content (lol).

1) Does it matter in which combat slot you put a regiment in? Ex. if there's 3 lines of combat regiment slots open, is there any difference between putting 3 each in the first two or, for example, putting 4 in the first one and 2 in the second one (for example representing some sort of a formation)?

2) I heard that it's better to have more regiments in a single division than have more divisions with low number of regiments in one of the WWW videos due to the stacking penalty, but what about the Eastern Front for Germany? Would it not be a bad idea to have too large divisions that can't fill the front properly and thus risk encirclements and other problems? What about strategic reserve and badly beaten up divisions? Are there not some serious risks in having enormous divisions, but with much smaller quantity of them?

3) What would be the best factors to determine when a division needs to be enlarged, besides the obvious one of having a large surplus of the equipment needed to re-supply current divisions to accommodate that increase?

4) Are there any recommended sizes for divisions based on task, ex. garrison divisions, amphibious landing divisions (so they would need to be optimized for supply and offensive power)?

5) What would be the best way to determine whether you should have support divisions as combat regiments or support regiments? Ex. deciding for artillery. As I understand, it would be best to have artillery as support in armor/mechanized/motorized divisions because it does not decrease the speed, but what about infantry where it doesn't matter? Artillery as regular regiment decreases organisation, correct? What organisation numbers would be considered normal to not have too much risk on the front from excessive fighting etc.?

I understand the community doesn't have access to the game, but a lot of this information is available already and it would be really tough to re-watch dozens of hours of content for the possibility of having these questions answered, as my bad memory has already forgotten whether they were addressed.

Want to have a proper game right from the release day, so probably would not be a good idea to wait around and then have to delay my hyped-up campaign.

 

[BeauNiddle]

1) no real difference. Each column is limited by the first item (infantry / tank) but just for adding regiments the position doesn't matter.

2) You can have one unit go over the combat width without penalties IIRC so a big unit or two that maxes out combat width has better combat stats than 5 small divisions where 2 have to sit out. The downside is lack of flexibility (if you want to capture 5 empty provinces small divisions are better than 1 massive, etc.)

3) Are the divisions achieving their objective I guess. Don't use a cannon to swat a fly.

4) Daniel said he likes to use 2 regiments in garrisons so they don't instant die but also don't cost much. 2 horse + 1 MP was suggested. As to the others it will be situational. The biggest you can support within supply & equipment limits I guess.

5) try adding it in the division designer - it shows all the stats changing clearly. If you like the change use it, if not abandon it. It only costs army experience when you confirm the change.

There are lots more options than HOI3 limit of 4/5 regiments so there shouldn't be such a cut and dried 'best' divisions.

Do you want lots of infantry weapon production in your factories to support massive divisions or do you want to try producing tanks at the cost of smaller armies. What is your factory count and resource supply like, etc. etc.

 

[Ricox]

Aigh, thanks. About the fifth one - I'm just wondering what good organisation numbers would be. There's been plenty of combat mechanics shown in the videos, so maybe there is some specific number that is way too low and causes trouble during offensives or defensive as these divisions cannot hold the heat or anything of the sort.

But I guess that'll come with trying it & seeing how it works.

 

[fredgiblet]

3) Are the divisions achieving their objective I guess. Don't use a cannon to swat a fly.

Right, that's what nukes are for.

 

[seldon]

I know you can only put the same type unit in a regiment. However what about guns, are artillery, anti-gun, and anti-aircraft., are they each a separate type of battalion or can you mix and match them in the same regiment. So for example I'll like my basic German Infantry regiment to have 3x3 with a battalion or two of artillery as time goes on add an antitank battalion and eventually for western front add an antiaircraft battalion or two. But if artillery, and anti-craft are all different types I'll run out regiments in the division.

 

[Sun_Killer]

I know you can only put the same type unit in a regiment. However what about guns, are artillery, anti-gun, and anti-aircraft., are they each a separate type of battalion or can you mix and match them in the same regiment. So for example I'll like my basic German Infantry regiment to have 3x3 with a battalion or two of artillery as time goes on add an antitank battalion and eventually for western front add an antiaircraft battalion or two. But if artillery, and anti-craft are all different types I'll run out regiments in the division.

The guns actually count as infantry so you can add them to inf regiments. The self propelled variants count as armor or motorized/ mechanized depanding where you add it.

 

[napolyon94]

i am wondering that, i liked to re-name and control all divisions in hoi3

 

[Wilbry]

1. It costs additonal xp to start a new regiment (they call them brigades I think), and it costs more xp to add a non-stream battalion to a regiment (adding an armour battalion to an infantry regiment). Those are the considerations regarding that choice.

2. All your questions essentially boil down to size vs strength, and the choices are designed to be unclear so as to give you lattitude to action your strategy: if you think overstrength divs in a thin line across the eastern front is the way to go, then commit to it, strengthen your streategy with complimentry tactics and designs. The pros and cons of each are already very evident to you so its a matter of deciding best hoe to use the strength of your choisen strategy and minimise its weakness.

3. In real life russian high command monitored german div sizes and increased their own "corps" several times to better compete. So, taking from that, you may wish to match your enemy in size if so that the enemy must muster vastly more units in order to attack, or you may wish to overstrength your divs so that, if needed, they can attack their opposite 1v1 and eventually win. Its a strategic choice. By matching size you can alsos pend the extra resources on special over-strength divs for spearheads, etc .

4. I would be surprised if 2 battalions could resist 18 battalions (2 divs) for very long at all.
Garrisons need to be perhaps slightly weaker than front line divs so that their defensive bonuses can match them to their attackers.
Marine divs should have as many marines as possible, killing isnt their goal, outlasting their enemy and taking ground is.
Paratroopers should be alrounders, so lots of troopers with good anti-tank and arty support (if possible) so they can handle everything on their own.

5. This is a complex decision that probably needs informing from #3, you want div org to at leat match your enemy, more if you want them to hold out defensively, even more if you want them to attack and then attack again.

I like the new system as I feel there are no hard and fast answers. Think about what you want to accomplish, and design your divs to match your strategy. Do no get distracted by what "the best answer" is, as there is never just one question, so there can never be just one answer.

 

[Bridger15]

I hope this helps clear some things up. I just finished it

More of these available at: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkQMBP16-XLEVHqSC4CM82aHB10OaG9-T

 

[Ricox]

I hope this helps clear some things up. I just finished it

More of these available at: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkQMBP16-XLEVHqSC4CM82aHB10OaG9-T

Very good video, thanks for your work!

Just another question in case anyone might know the answer - how are tank upgrades handled? Do medium tanks, for example, upgrade from one variant (from the research tree) to the other when the other is researched (so still retaining MT, but going from older to newer versions if they're available)? Do sub-models (the ones you create from the tech tree variants, but where you get to improve reliability, engine, main gun, armor etc.) upgrade as well, or if they don't - can you upgrade them manually and what would be the costs of that (ex. is it quicker to convert older model to a newer model than just producing the new model separately)? What happens when you mark a sub-variant as obsolete, does it just disappear from the list or the mechanics actually try to replace the tank with newer designs?

1. It costs additonal xp to start a new regiment (they call them brigades I think), and it costs more xp to add a non-stream battalion to a regiment (adding an armour battalion to an infantry regiment). Those are the considerations regarding that choice.

2. All your questions essentially boil down to size vs strength, and the choices are designed to be unclear so as to give you lattitude to action your strategy: if you think overstrength divs in a thin line across the eastern front is the way to go, then commit to it, strengthen your streategy with complimentry tactics and designs. The pros and cons of each are already very evident to you so its a matter of deciding best hoe to use the strength of your choisen strategy and minimise its weakness.

3. In real life russian high command monitored german div sizes and increased their own "corps" several times to better compete. So, taking from that, you may wish to match your enemy in size if so that the enemy must muster vastly more units in order to attack, or you may wish to overstrength your divs so that, if needed, they can attack their opposite 1v1 and eventually win. Its a strategic choice. By matching size you can alsos pend the extra resources on special over-strength divs for spearheads, etc .

4. I would be surprised if 2 battalions could resist 18 battalions (2 divs) for very long at all.
Garrisons need to be perhaps slightly weaker than front line divs so that their defensive bonuses can match them to their attackers.
Marine divs should have as many marines as possible, killing isnt their goal, outlasting their enemy and taking ground is.
Paratroopers should be alrounders, so lots of troopers with good anti-tank and arty support (if possible) so they can handle everything on their own.

5. This is a complex decision that probably needs informing from #3, you want div org to at leat match your enemy, more if you want them to hold out defensively, even more if you want them to attack and then attack again.

I like the new system as I feel there are no hard and fast answers. Think about what you want to accomplish, and design your divs to match your strategy. Do no get distracted by what "the best answer" is, as there is never just one question, so there can never be just one answer.

Thanks for the replies.

Yeah, I'm very locked into the usual Paradox game style of always having the "correct answers". HoI 3, EU IV and Victoria 2 all have strategies that are, in general, much more superior than their counterparts and, although some choice exists, it's mostly still down to the best divisions that can be fielded in a specific situation and there is less flexibility or strategic depth.

It actually does seem great that HoI IV is giving more real options (I won't deny HoI III had them as well, but I think most can agree that the choice was often left to the "better strategy" that worked in most cases).

I'm glad they've removed a lot of the interface, control & micromanagement problems of HoI III and instead replaced them with more user-friendly interface, better control and the option to micromanage while getting a competent AI (unlike HoI 3) to handle the bigger problems (or just have it handle all problems while acting as the "big general" who makes adjustments when needed), adding real strategic depth & options not the illusion of it created by unneeded complexity.

 

[Bridger15]

Very good video, thanks for your work!

Just another question in case anyone might know the answer - how are tank upgrades handled? Do medium tanks, for example, upgrade from one variant (from the research tree) to the other when the other is researched (so still retaining MT, but going from older to newer versions if they're available)? Do sub-models (the ones you create from the tech tree variants, but where you get to improve reliability, engine, main gun, armor etc.) upgrade as well, or if they don't - can you upgrade them manually and what would be the costs of that (ex. is it quicker to convert older model to a newer model than just producing the new model separately)? What happens when you mark a sub-variant as obsolete, does it just disappear from the list or the mechanics actually try to replace the tank with newer designs?

The way it works is this:

1. You start building panzer II
2. You get some army experience, and create a modified variant of panzer II with extra armor and reliability (PanzerIIa)
3. You can either create a new line and build this variant, or swap out the production of base panzer II to the new Panzer IIa. Creating a new line would require you to have some extra factories. Swapping out the base panzer for the variant would reduce your factories efficiency bonus for a time (but swapping to a variant has a lower impact than swapping to a completely different tank, and much lower than swapping to a completely different type of production, like infantry equipment)
4. You research Panzer III; you now face the same choice as before. build a new line to produce Panzer IIIs (need free factories) or swap out the panzer IIa production for panzer III production. if you had army experience, you could also immediately build a panzer III variant as soon as you research it, and start producting that. However, switching to a completely different chassis (panzer II to panzer III) will give you a pretty significant hit on your output for that line until the production efficiency can recover over time.

There is no way to take existing Panzer IIa equipment and "upgrade it" to panzer IIIs. Nor is there a way to take Panzer II and upgrade it to the variant (panzer IIa). The only way to "upgrade" the troops in the field is to completely replace their old equipment with the new equipment. The most common way this will work is that the division will be in combat and will lose some of it's panzer II tanks, and when they send back for replacements, they get panzer III tanks. if your not losing any equipment due to attrition, you will slowly swap out your old equipment for new, and you can set the priority of which theater and division gets the best equipment first.

 

[Ricox]

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Hearts of Iron III made so little sense in some aspects that my expectations were lower for the whole rotation, production & research process.

 

[paddy1966]

I find it amusing that a Field Marshal says I dont understand it at all,and a Second Lieutenant has to explain it to him . Imagine General Meltchard and Capatain Blackadder . Blackadder Goes Forth British sitcom..

 

[Caaarl81]

I still don't understand the difference between battalions in width or in depth. In combat what's the diffrence between having 1 battalion i width and 5 battalions in depth or having 5 battalions in width and 1 in depth in your division?

 

[Ricox]

I still don't understand the difference between battalions in width or in depth. In combat what's the diffrence between having 1 battalion i width and 5 battalions in depth or having 5 battalions in width and 1 in depth in your division?

Apparently it has no relevance at all. It's just cosmetic design, technically every column is a brigade, but according to answers here and the further research I did myself there is no difference between having 6 battalions/regiments (whatever they are) split between 3 brigades or 2 brigades. The changes to division stats are the exact same regardless of where the regiment/battalion is in the cosmetic "formation" setup, there is only a difference between having it as a support company or regular combat regiment/battalion.

I guess it helps you to organize your division better and whatnot, and makes it all nice, tidy and good looking.

 

[ikabon]

I still don't understand the difference between battalions in width or in depth. In combat what's the diffrence between having 1 battalion i width and 5 battalions in depth or having 5 battalions in width and 1 in depth in your division?

There is no difference in combat.
but with 5 battalions in depth you can add non infantry battalions to your division.
with 5 battalions in width you can only add infantry battalions

 

[Ricox]

I find it amusing that a Field Marshal says I dont understand it at all,and a Second Lieutenant has to explain it to him . Imagine General Meltchard and Capatain Blackadder . Blackadder Goes Forth British sitcom..

lol

 

[Bridger15]

There is no difference in combat.
but with 5 battalions in depth you can add non infantry battalions to your division.
with 5 battalions in width you can only add infantry battalions

Also: The first battalion in a brigade costs 25 Exp to add, each additional in the same brigade costs 5. So having "tall" divisions makes a lot more sense. You should only add a new brigade under 2 circumstances:

1) All the other brigades are full
2) You need to add a new type of unit that does not currently have an open brigade.

 

[GsusNSV]

Also: The first battalion in a brigade costs 25 Exp to add, each additional in the same brigade costs 5. So having "tall" divisions makes a lot more sense.

Is that a thing again? (I could not watch todays stream. ) Because I remember them changing it to, the first division of brigade type costing 25 XP. (Like adding the first tank battalion to an infatry division. Every other Tank in this division would be 5, wherever you put it.)
As seen in these pictures from the Hungary stream, adding this Arty battalion (in a new Brigade) cost only 5 XP.

Spoiler

 

[Bridger15]

@G-sus: Did he already have an infantry in that spot and remove it? That could explain it only costing 5 (he's not starting a new brigade or changing it's type, only swapping it out for a new one of same type). It's possible it changed and I didn't notice.