Divisions faining traits Vs. leaders gaining traits

[iconoclast91]

Cheers everyone,

so I was getting back into HOI III in anticipation of the next game. Something that striked me, something that I always took for granted, was that only leaders have traits. That is something of an antique way of seeing war and combat, since it is most often an experienced nco or/and enlisted corps that shapes the units character. I can barely think of a way a "winter specialist" who is sitting in his Div HQ can support the 19 year old PFC freezing his ass off, but I can think of many ways an experienced Gunny can give him some pointers.

Of course i would never expect that to be added in an actual DLC, but I find the idea worth exploring, to have divisions gain traits, instead of, or additional to, leaders. Similar to CK or the Legions in Rome II, they would wear their scars with pride, indicated by some sort of icon.

For example:

1.) If the Unit endures X days of blizzard in a row, during the winter of 41, it gains the "Winter of ´41 trait", that reduced attrition due to blizzard a bit.

2.) After conducting X number of opposed amphibious operations, the unit gains the "the Few, the Proud" trait, that decreased the landing penality.

3.) After being encircled for X days, and reestablishing supply lines, the unit gains the "Pocket of ...." trait, named after one major province in the pocket. increases supply grace.

4.) All Divisions that have been formed after the "scrap the barrel" policy has been adopted, have the "Too young to die" trait, reducing the morale.

specifically national traits would be interesting too, eg "guards" trait for X wins of a soviet division, increasing its morale, Currahee for the first US Airborne division conducting a drop, (Rot scheint die Sonne for German Fallschirmjaeger) or we shall fight... for british divisions that are in france when war starts.

The latter could be purely for flavour. I would love it to click on a Division and see what it has been through.

So, these are just my thoughts. I just wanted to share that. I find the idea intriguing, let me know what you think!

Cheers

Edit: Would love it if a mod could correct the typo in the title....

 

[Sun_Killer]

Interesting idea, but i think this coverd by experience and how a leader can help the 19 OFC is that he knows what the divsion needs in winter and how to use it without loseing to many people.

 

[blue_yonder]

Yeah, I think yours is a more original idea than most around here and I like your phrasing as well.. ) This iteration of the game is more about the iron than the hearts, the machinery of war more than the people who fought it, so it's well worth suggesting but I wouldn't hold your breath to see it happen.

 

[rjohansen]

I have suggested division traits before, but I do like the examples you give here. A division should/could gain a trait, and loose it, if enough (certain percentage) of it's manpower is lost later on in my opinion. I am not sure about number 4 though, that all divisions should get this penalty, I mean they already have penalties. Could be depending on national unity or something perhaps.

 

[scroggin]

I like the idea. It would have to give unique attributes not covered by experience like your examples.

 

[Sir Garnet]

Won't happen since too similar to having divisional generals that encourage people to spend time managing them based on their different attributes. That's what generals and field marshals are for.

Though I'd like a few units to have particular distinctions with illustrious service

(and veteran or better their accumulated records of battle honors, even if purely chrome)

 

[Lifthrasil]

Great idea but I think your suggestion is a bit too complex, since you would have to hover over hundreds of different bagdes for different divisions (how many different "pocket of..." badges will there be in the end?). It just makes info harder to see.
I would therefore split it up in 2 kinds of "badges":
- purely flavored one, where divisions have a ledger you can open where their history is recorded after certain events ("pocket of Kursk"-badge ect). Those don't do anything and are just for RP.
- simplified traits for the divisions similar to the generals traits, based on what they experienced. But maybe limit it to 1-2 traits per division. And the bonus should be small, so the micro-maniacs can optimize their gameplay, but also that more "casual" gamers aren't forced to cycle through all their divisions just to find the one division with the needed bunker-buster trait. Maybe like 1-2% bonus under certain conditions.

 

[Lifthrasil]

Though I'd like a few units to have particular distinctions with illustrious service

(and veteran or better their accumulated records of battle honors, even if purely chrome)

At least this one! Imagine the horror: Your 1st Tank division, that was with you from the start, that has dozens of badges (shows all the blood they shed for you), is surronded by the enemy. Do you abandon them now or sacrifice/risk other division just to set them free als relief them?
That'd actually be a strong incentive for me to buy the game. Or to buy the feature later as a DLC if it must be.

 

[Sir Garnet]

A click-for-info list of battle/date in the unit attributes makes the units less faceless and would not get in the way of of affect play or players who prefer a generic approach to their units.

However, making a lot of different images for badges involves a bit of work and more substantial overhead, and unit traits apart from the standard stats affect play.

 

[Jongmaster]

This would be an awesome feature to have in the game, though I imagine that it will be DLC or something of the like

 

[iconoclast91]

A division should/could gain a trait, and loose it, if enough (certain percentage) of it's manpower is lost later on in my opinion.

I Agree

Though I'd like a few units to have particular distinctions with illustrious service

I would therefore split it up in 2 kinds of "badges":
- purely flavored one, where divisions have a ledger you can open where their history is recorded after certain events ("pocket of Kursk"-badge ect). Those don't do anything and are just for RP.
- simplified traits for the divisions similar to the generals traits, based on what they experienced. But maybe limit it to 1-2 traits per division. And the bonus should be small, so the micro-maniacs can optimize their gameplay, but also that more "casual" gamers aren't forced to cycle through all their divisions just to find the one division with the needed bunker-buster trait. Maybe like 1-2% bonus under certain conditions.

Yes, I also agree that some of these badges/traits should be purely cosmetical.

Won't happen since too similar to having divisional generals that encourage people to spend time managing them based on their different attributes.

I am too old to actually expect my brain farts on the internet to turn into anything ;-) just throwing out my thoughts for public discussion.

Maybe like 1-2% bonus under certain conditions.

I agree, and would probably go even lower. I think more of it as "steam achivements" for your in-game units,

I am not sure about number 4 though, that all divisions should get this penalty, I mean they already have penalties. Could be depending on national unity or something perhaps.

my examples are just supposed to serve as illustrating, and shouldn't be taken literal. I would like to see some titles for these traits, that have a bit more character than "jungle fighter level 2" and such a like. That would be important to me. "Too yound to die" would be interesting though; think empathy gaming. Sending such units into combat, could make the player connect with the game in interesting ways.



Cheers

 

[Denkt]

This could be expansion material

 

[pheonicia]

Divisions that helped conquer important victory points could get a Conquerors of Rome/Berlin/Leningrad/London etc. badges that would make them really stand out among the crowd. I'd personally prefer having as many and as varied as possible 'badges' but with no game-play effect so it doesn't affect the game too much. Also if it doesn't have an affect than it can be hidden away without consequence by the people who don't want to worry about a system like this for whatever reason.

 

[kviiri]

Divisions that helped conquer important victory points could get a Conquerors of Rome/Berlin/Leningrad/London etc. badges that would make them really stand out among the crowd. I'd personally prefer having as many and as varied as possible 'badges' but with no game-play effect so it doesn't affect the game too much. Also if it doesn't have an affect than it can be hidden away without consequence by the people who don't want to worry about a system like this for whatever reason.

With any such badge doing anything gameplay-wise, there's a problem that the game will reward absolutely stupid micromanagement to get the badge for a desired unit for maximum bonuses.

 

[Lifthrasil]

With any such badge doing anything gameplay-wise, there's a problem that the game will reward absolutely stupid micromanagement to get the badge for a desired unit for maximum bonuses.

That's why he said that the badges should N O T have any gameplay effect ;-)

 

[albso437]

1.) If the Unit endures X days of blizzard in a row, during the winter of 41, it gains the "Winter of ´41 trait", that reduced attrition due to blizzard a bit.

So my proud 1st Divisions fight in the blizzard and gains the Winter Badge.
However attrition takes it toll, so Manpower is down to 50%
I fill up the ranks and somehow all these new green recruits learn Everything there is to know about winter attrition.

During the spring my proud 1st Division take part in an amphibious landing, gets rewarded with the "Marine Badge".
Unforunately the division takes 50% casualties, but I fill up the ranks with green recruits and they all learn about Winter war and landings.

In the summer my proud 1st Division gets surrounded, but manage to hold out in the pocket until rescued.
While doing so they take 50% casualtis, but once again I fill up the ranks and these new recruits learn Everything there is to know about Winter attrition, landings and pocket fights.

Do you find this realistic?

Flavour badges? Sure - why not!

But badges giving any kind of bonus to the division is not the way to go. (IMHO.)

 

[Lifthrasil]

Do you find this realistic?

Flavour badges? Sure - why not!

But badges giving any kind of bonus to the division is not the way to go. (IMHO.)

While I agree that bonus-badges are a bit of a hassle, I don't think it's unrealistic that green recruits can learn how to survive a blizzad or how to perform amphibious assaults from their experienced comrades. They just train each other. So the concept itself i think is not unrealistic, but maybe just too complicated for HOI4 as a game.
But flavor badges would be cool!

 

[fabius]

So my proud 1st Divisions fight in the blizzard and gains the Winter Badge.
However attrition takes it toll, so Manpower is down to 50%
I fill up the ranks and somehow all these new green recruits learn Everything there is to know about winter attrition.

During the spring my proud 1st Division take part in an amphibious landing, gets rewarded with the "Marine Badge".
Unforunately the division takes 50% casualties, but I fill up the ranks with green recruits and they all learn about Winter war and landings.

In the summer my proud 1st Division gets surrounded, but manage to hold out in the pocket until rescued.
While doing so they take 50% casualtis, but once again I fill up the ranks and these new recruits learn Everything there is to know about Winter attrition, landings and pocket fights.

Do you find this realistic?

Flavour badges? Sure - why not!

But badges giving any kind of bonus to the division is not the way to go. (IMHO.)

The surviving Corporals, sergeants and vets pass on their knowledge. How much attrition do you think a modern day Royal Marines battalion takes over the years. A lot of people leave, but they are still winter warfare specialist training the next generation and even other countries.

Also, military units often take on an esprit de corps that relates to their recent and very long gone history.

Some Division traits would be fun to my mind. Just get the right ones. For game play purposes, I'd perhaps steer clear of copying General type traits.

Make them something unique. Off top of my head:
Fanatic: much slower org loss. Higher damage in and out.
Brittle- prone to retreat even with some org left
Combat fatigue (after much continuous combat and temporary: able to remove with much rest): slower attack; lower damage in and out.

 

[albso437]

You are totaly missing the Point.
(And that may be my fault.)
Experience is not tied to the name of a unit.
It is tied to the actual Soldiers/NCO's/Officers.

The suggestion here is to give a specific division a specific bonus in for example winter warfare..
But if that division get almost annihilated in game (let's say 90% losses during a short period of time) the experience of winter warfare is gone.

"Oh, but if we have special winter warfare education for all recruits we send to that division..."
Then it would mayhaps be a special Winter warfare division, but it would not be related to that actual winter fighting the division took part in.

It would be cool if we actually could train divisions for different kind of warfare, but that is (afaik) not implemented in the game and something totally different than the suggestion in the first post.

 

[iconoclast91]

So my proud 1st Divisions fight in the blizzard and gains the Winter Badge.
However attrition takes it toll, so Manpower is down to 50%
I fill up the ranks and somehow all these new green recruits learn Everything there is to know about winter attrition.

During the spring my proud 1st Division take part in an amphibious landing, gets rewarded with the "Marine Badge".
Unforunately the division takes 50% casualties, but I fill up the ranks with green recruits and they all learn about Winter war and landings.

In the summer my proud 1st Division gets surrounded, but manage to hold out in the pocket until rescued.
While doing so they take 50% casualtis, but once again I fill up the ranks and these new recruits learn Everything there is to know about Winter attrition, landings and pocket fights.

Do you find this realistic?

To be fair, I find it more realistic than one guy sitting in Army HQ, having enjoyed the last years blizzard in a captured hotel, having all the amenities that comes along with having a staff.

To address the casulty concern, I'll echo rjohansen's comment

A division should/could gain a trait, and loose it, if enough (certain percentage) of it's manpower is lost later on in my opinion.

I also think, as others have pointed out, that you underestimate the importance of passing down best practice. It is very often the little things that come along with experience that maintain operational effectiveness: Don't wear all your cloths in the sleeping bag, keep the batteries for your night vision in a warm place, otherwise they will discharge, make sure nothing of your gear is rattling when on patrol (or in general), put lots of oil on your MG.belt.....

I know, we have unit experience in the game. But the point that I am trying to make is, that there are a million of things that can be pointed out by experienced mates, and not a general in the world would show the PFC what he really wants to know, because that 19 year-old just wants to have warm feet and at some point stops caring about the big plans the priviliged people come up with in command.

And that can shape a units character. Bottom line: I would like to have that "character" displayed in some way.

Cheers