Division Transit Times In WW II?

[Otto]

Does anyone have any insight into division transit times. By type (eg. armor or infantry) and by mode (eg. rail or road)? I play as German SP so I'm mostly interested in German divisions but I assume that they were all around the same. I am asking because I feel that strategic redeployment is too fast in many situations. In particular, German units on the Eastern front especially the first year of the attack and also the ability to move divisions around in the Med.. Thanks in advance for any thoughts or sources of data.

 

[Zauberelefant]

As the German army deployed Divisions by rail if at all possible, the difference between armour and infantry Divisions was negligible.
Under direct enemy air attacks, road movement became restricted to night time and became a crawl.

I am not aware of a systematic overview in deployment time, but I would Hazard a guess that redeploying a full Division from one front to another took around 3 weeks. But this usually happened to units in R&R, so active Divisions might take longer, as they would compete with rail Space with other needs for their theatre?

 

[Louella]

The Germans operated a scheme called "Blitztransport", which would allow units to be moved very quickly, E.g. at the battle of Arnhem during Operation Market Garden, the German army was able to move units several hundred km, in a very short time.

The battle began on 17 September when the airborne forces landed. Tiger tank battalions were alerted, and were loaded, moved, unloaded, and in action by the 19th of September. Heavy Panzer Battalion 503 with 45 tanks, was moved 600km to the railhead closest to Arnhem (80km), on September 18/19. and were fully in action by the morning of the 21st. Heavy Panzer Battalion 506 with 14 available tanks, took 8 hours to load onto railway cars and was moved 200km to the railhead, though only 2 tanks made the 80km sprint from the railhead to Arnhem to be in action by late afternoon of the 19th September.

I think that was very much the exception though. "Blitztransport" trains took absolute priority over everything except the Fuhrers own train.

(I only came across this while looking up a different topic)

 

[Zauberelefant]

The Germans operated a scheme called "Blitztransport", which would allow units to be moved very quickly, E.g. at the battle of Arnhem during Operation Market Garden, the German army was able to move units several hundred km, in a very short time.

The battle began on 17 September when the airborne forces landed. Tiger tank battalions were alerted, and were loaded, moved, unloaded, and in action by the 19th of September. Heavy Panzer Battalion 503 with 45 tanks, was moved 600km to the railhead closest to Arnhem (80km), on September 18/19. and were fully in action by the morning of the 21st. Heavy Panzer Battalion 506 with 14 available tanks, took 8 hours to load onto railway cars and was moved 200km to the railhead, though only 2 tanks made the 80km sprint from the railhead to Arnhem to be in action by late afternoon of the 19th September.

I think that was very much the exception though. "Blitztransport" trains took absolute priority over everything except the Fuhrers own train.

(I only came across this while looking up a different topic)

Some caveats here: late war, rail space was getting rare, as were good connections - in late 1944/45, trains could take 5 days to traverse the Reich.
Also, in hoi4 we're talking Divisions, and these take longer than battalions to train/detrain.
Furthermore, up Til 1944, the regular distance to cover for fire brigade units was france/italy - eastern front or vice versa, which took several days of transit.

If you look at a Panzer Division, with 150 tanks, 15000 men, over 1000 vehicles, it becomes clear that you need several trains that might not be available all at once.

But priority might cancel these Problems, and we can say ~2 weeks for crossing the continent for large formations by rail?

 

[Praetori]

Some caveats here: late war, rail space was getting rare, as were good connections - in late 1944/45, trains could take 5 days to traverse the Reich.
Also, in hoi4 we're talking Divisions, and these take longer than battalions to train/detrain.
Furthermore, up Til 1944, the regular distance to cover for fire brigade units was france/italy - eastern front or vice versa, which took several days of transit.

If you look at a Panzer Division, with 150 tanks, 15000 men, over 1000 vehicles, it becomes clear that you need several trains that might not be available all at once.

But priority might cancel these Problems, and we can say ~2 weeks for crossing the continent for large formations by rail?

If I remember correctly a single German late-war armored division required 50-75 separate trainsets (that's between 1000-2500 box/flatcars and probably 100 locomotives or more, if you count switchers etc for as many days as the transport lasted) to move vehicles, materiel and men. A non-mechanized infantry-division required 15-25 separate trains. Just moving a few divisions took an enormous toll on the total railroad capacity.

 

[Louella]

Also, in hoi4 we're talking Divisions, and these take longer than battalions to train/detrain.

Yeah. But I was just thinking. That was an example of moving units through some fairly well developed regions, albeit with some infrastructure damage (from Allied air campaign) Let's say the railhead arrival is the unit reaching the adjacent province. So one unit that moved 600km in 48 hours, took 24 hrs to regain ORG before attacking. The other moved 200km in 24hrs and made an immediate attack.
That gives us average speeds of 12ish km/hr for the unit moving 600km and 8ish for the one moving 200km. Through some well developed regions (infra 8 or 9 I think? Maybe infra 5 effective due to damage).

Hoi4s strategic redeployment iirc varies between 10 and 110 km/hr depending on infrastructure level. A speed that isn't affected by day/night.
So in hoi4 those units would have taken much less time than they did historically. Some 50-70 km/hr instead of 8-12.

And Blitztranport was like, the train was to be provided with replacement fully coaled/watered locomotives at each halt, it was not to wait for the locomotives to be refuelled and rewatered. It was absolute maximum effort.

So I think it's quite possible the OP is right in thinking strategic redeployment speed might be too high in some contexts, such as through the less developed bits of Eastern Europe.

 

[Fulmen]

Didn't it take months for the DAK to receive most of the equipment for just 2 panzer divisions in North Africa?

 

[Praetori]

So I think it's quite possible the OP is right in thinking strategic redeployment speed might be too high in some contexts, such as through the less developed bits of Eastern Europe.

And it's too low in other parts. While I'm exaggerating a bit but given an untrained division it's almost faster to disband a Soviet Far East division and retrain it in the west than it is to strat-redeploy it (via invisible trains or whichever mode of transport it's supposed to be).
I remember there was quite a good thread on naval transports as well (they're VERY slow compared to historical figures but it's balanced a bit by how ridiculously easy it is to send entire armies around the globe ready to fight within a day or two).

 

[bitmode]

The speeds are too high in almost all contexts. Infantry divisions marching 96 km per day (in good infrastructure)? And that's before Mobile Warfare or recon company bonuses. Strat redeploy is no different. Cutting the speeds in half might still overestimate typical average speeds taking into account congestion, limited trains, less than perfect logistics management etc.

And it's too low in other parts. While I'm exaggerating a bit but given an untrained division it's almost faster to disband a Soviet Far East division and retrain it in the west than it is to strat-redeploy it

I don't see that as a problem though. It does make sense to raise new divisions rather than send them from half a world away over a sparse transport network.

 

[Krautkopf]

Didn't it take months for the DAK to receive most of the equipment for just 2 panzer divisions in North Africa?

Please be aware that was (technically) "intercontinental" ;-) and after all, there was WATER in the way (Med and stuff).

"Germany can over sea" is like "Poland can into space"

 

[Fulmen]

Please be aware that was (technically) "intercontinental" ;-) and after all, there was WATER in the way (Med and stuff).

"Germany can over sea" is like "Poland can into space"

Of course. I was only asking to see if I remembered it correctly.

It does however point out just how unrealistic amphibious invasions in the game are, being trivially easy compared to real life, something I've spoken about in the past. In-game you can also transport dozens of panzer divisions from Sicily to Africa within a matter of days, or back and forth many times in a month, if that's your cup or tea. Completely unrealistic.

 

[Otto]

Thanks for the responses folks. I did a quick Google last night and a site called Feldgrau (German armed forces 1918-45) has a 10 page dissertation on the German railway system in WW2. Quite a lot of detail. For those interested on the topic this seems like a required read. I only did a cursory look at it but when I get a chance I will read it over and share any pertinent info..

 

[Duke_Dave]

I think at Stalingrad they wanted to move up a tank division from the Caucasus via one railway connection would have taken two weeks to get it there. It really depends on the area, the time and equipment (tiger tank is slightly heavier than a Panzer 2) and the country Soviet divisions were often quite small. I don't know about ship transport.