Division Customization

[sbrengard]

I read that Western Divisions will have 3 brigade slots and the Soviets 2.

While I am no Expert in such matters a standard US Infantry Division from WWII was setup as follows:

Headquarters Company
Military Police Company
Reconnaissance Company
Signal Company
3x Infantry Regiment
4x Field Artillery Battalion (or one Brigade)
Division Band
Engineer Battalion
Medical Battalion
Quartermaster Battalion

By my count a US division should have 3xInfantry Brigades, 1 Artillery Brigade, and 1 'Services' Brigade (not in game, but perhaps it should be). That is 5 Brigades not counting any additional reinforcing.

Would it not be a better solution to have brigade slots increase/decrease depending on Land Doctrine techs researched?

Also the Standard US Division had between 12,000 and 15,000 men. It would be great if HOI3 used actual manpower counts so the user had a better feel for the losses being inflicted and manpower increases/decreases.

 

[unmerged(13008)]

Where did you read it?

 

[Bullfrog]

I read that Western Divisions will have 3 brigade slots and the Soviets 2.

While I am no Expert in such matters a standard US Infantry Division from WWII was setup as follows:

Headquarters Company
Military Police Company
Reconnaissance Company
Signal Company
3x Infantry Regiment
4x Field Artillery Battalion (or one Brigade)
Division Band
Engineer Battalion
Medical Battalion
Quartermaster Battalion

By my count a US division should have 3xInfantry Brigades, 1 Artillery Brigade, and 1 'Services' Brigade (not in game, but perhaps it should be). That is 5 Brigades not counting any additional reinforcing.

Would it not be a better solution to have brigade slots increase/decrease depending on Land Doctrine techs researched?

Also the Standard US Division had between 12,000 and 15,000 men. It would be great if HOI3 used actual manpower counts so the user had a better feel for the losses being inflicted and manpower increases/decreases.

Yeah I wrote that after visiting heartsofiron.de, it is in the unofficial information thread.
You are confusing the infantry regiment with the infantry brigade. An infantry brigade is composed of 2+ regiments.

 

[unmerged(64229)]

If I remember correctly, Germany used 9,000-12,000 men.

 

[blue emu]

Since Divisions were very rarely built up of Brigades (almost all TOEs used Regiments), perhaps it would be best if we started using the word Regiments instead?

I really hope that some sort of flexible Division-template will be used... say, a minimum of one Regiment, and a maximum of four Regiments plus up to two attachments.

That would allow you to simulate independant brigades (just design some one-Regiment Divisions), early-war Italian binary Divisions (two Regiments plus a possible attachment), typical triangular Divisions... right up to over-strength Divisions (four Regiments plus attachments).

 

[Bullfrog]

Since Divisions were very rarely built up of Brigades (almost all TOEs used Regiments), perhaps it would be best if we started using the word Regiments instead?

I really hope that some sort of flexible Division-template will be used... say, a minimum of one Regiment, and a maximum of four Regiments plus up to two attachments.

That would allow you to simulate independant brigades (just design some one-Regiment Divisions), early-war Italian binary Divisions (two Regiments plus a possible attachment), typical triangular Divisions... right up to over-strength Divisions (four Regiments plus attachments).

Like I asked when I heard this concept was in HOI3 (Devs, call brigades regiments. Please) this would be in my liking as well.
Early in the war at least for the armored divisions, Germany used brigades. By 1941 (or earlier) the panzer divisions were organized into regiments. The English used the term brigade when making divisions. However, other than that, as stated, the regiment was the key component of the division. whether 2, 3 or more this was almost universal, and as such should be the game mechanic. It seems though that PI has already decided on brigades. Maybe if we cry enough they'll change it.

 

[unmerged(21821)]

I would love to see such a regiment system in place as well.

 

[alkomon]

It seems though that PI has already decided on brigades. Maybe if we cry enough they'll change it.

I would like to have regiments!!!

(and now the crying part)

 

[The Starfox]

I myself would prefer battalions to be the subunit. This would provide the greatest variety of divisions possible. It would also ensure that all the different unit types get used as well. Unlike now where the various brigade types dont get used for the most part, except SP Art or Art.

 

[Bullfrog]

I myself would prefer battalions to be the subunit. This would provide the greatest variety of divisions possible. It would also ensure that all the different unit types get used as well. Unlike now where the various brigade types dont get used for the most part, except SP Art or Art.

that would be 9 bn per division, on average, plus various attachments like Arty. I think it would get too cumbersome.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Yeah I wrote that after visiting heartsofiron.de, it is in the unofficial information thread.
You are confusing the infantry regiment with the infantry brigade. An infantry brigade is composed of 2+ regiments.

A brigade could be anything between 2 to 6 battalions, all depending on which county you are talking about and at which point in the war.

 

[sbrengard]

Where did you read it?

I forget where ... I googled it.

 

[sbrengard]

Yeah I wrote that after visiting heartsofiron.de, it is in the unofficial information thread.
You are confusing the infantry regiment with the infantry brigade. An infantry brigade is composed of 2+ regiments.

A 'Square Division' of WWI had 2 Regiments per Brigade, and 4 regiments per Division. During and After WWI most converted to a 'Triangular Division' composed of three regimental maneuver elements and several smaller support elements.

In the 1960s, United States Army divisions were reorganized as triangular divisions, but with the division controlling three combined arms brigades.

Of course I'm speaking from a US Army perspective. The US Marines still use regiments.

I am afraid I cant speak out on the European powers.

 

[sbrengard]

It seems though that PI has already decided on brigades. Maybe if we cry enough they'll change it.

Or make the name moddable .... maybe even make the number of slots moddable.

In the US a Brigade=Regiment for the most part.

 

[LogisticEarth]

That would allow you to simulate independant brigades (just design some one-Regiment Divisions), early-war Italian binary Divisions (two Regiments plus a possible attachment), typical triangular Divisions... right up to over-strength Divisions (four Regiments plus attachments).

This would be great. Use the current build system but just have a "Regiment strength" tab also. that is "Parallel build, Serial build, and 'Division Strength'".

And the Division Strength would act as a cap for the unit Strength. This is better than just setting "low strength" divisions as they would require reinforcements to get back up to "full" strength under the current system. The strength cap could be manually changed at any time in case you wanted to increase the Division from, say, two to three regiments.

 

[unmerged(72936)]

I was wondering if there would be any possibility of forming any kampfgruppen during the course of the game...? Before it was just a doctrine technology, but I'd like to see it used in the formation of divisions somehow. Say perhaps, that if a division takes a lot of damage during a battle, it will form a Kampfgruppen as an extra brigade, giving it a bonus in battle.

Just a thought

 

[sbrengard]

I was wondering if there would be any possibility of forming any kampfgruppen during the course of the game...? Before it was just a doctrine technology, but I'd like to see it used in the formation of divisions somehow. Say perhaps, that if a division takes a lot of damage during a battle, it will form a Kampfgruppen as an extra brigade, giving it a bonus in battle.

Just a thought

A Kampfgruppe could range in size from a corps to a company , but the most common was an Abteilung (battalion)-sized formation. Since that is FAR below the level of Division I would highly doubt it.

 

[daemonofdecay]

Since Divisions were very rarely built up of Brigades (almost all TOEs used Regiments), perhaps it would be best if we started using the word Regiments instead?

I really hope that some sort of flexible Division-template will be used... say, a minimum of one Regiment, and a maximum of four Regiments plus up to two attachments.

That would allow you to simulate independant brigades (just design some one-Regiment Divisions), early-war Italian binary Divisions (two Regiments plus a possible attachment), typical triangular Divisions... right up to over-strength Divisions (four Regiments plus attachments).

It would also be cool if each regiment had a few options when being built, for instance one could make each regiment oversized or undersized, and if the veterancy of each regiment could be different, or if different regiments could have a number of options when built: for instance, I could give the infantry regiment(s) in a tank division trucks, half-tracks, or even make them cavalry.

Heck, maybe if a division gets almost completely wiped out one could take the leftover regiments and slide them into other divisions, where their veterancy might help educate the other units in a division at least a small bit.

But this might be too much for the system to track, too.

 

[Bullfrog]

A brigade could be anything between 2 to 6 battalions, all depending on which county you are talking about and at which point in the war.

The OP used a US example, as did I. There were not US infantry brigades making up divisions in WW2, but there were brigades, and in the US a brigade is usually 3000+ men....I would say larger in total than a regiment. It is usually also composed of a varied mix of troop types, so not really right for making divisions. But yes you are also correct.

edit: Nevermind, I was using the German definition.

Or make the name moddable .... maybe even make the number of slots moddable.

In the US a Brigade=Regiment for the most part.

Moddable, hopefully. In the US armed forces, usually a brigade is made up of 2 or more regiments or 2-6 battalions ... I suppose it is all semantics. I would like to play with regiments over brigades in HOI3 for sure.

 

[unmerged(54763)]

Let as reduce this debate on realistic and most probable way the divisions will be in HOI III.

It is natural way to estimate that division will be composed of 3 or 4 organic "parts" that we could call brigade,or regiment.But they could call them brigades,since term "brigade" is familliar term from HOI 2,despite inacuracies of using this term from perspective of strict military organisation.
It is in "fashion" of developer this term brigade,and it is legitimate to expect the same in HOI III.

From my perspective most easy and still satissfactory way to rise HOI III to another level of gameplay and acuracy of simulation,will be divisions composed of up to 3 elements plus one aditional atachable brigade.
That are 4 (3+1) elements.

In this stage of evolution of grand strategy ww2 simulation I believe complexity increase x3 will be the "key" in which way Paradox will go.

What I mean:
10 000 provinces is roughly 3x more than in HOI 2.Compexitiy factor 3.
Divisions composed out of 3 integral parts(brigade atachment is allready present)-Complexity factor 3.

There will be the day I believe,when some HOI 6 or 7 will recreate division composition on squad level,but now is the time of rising complexitiy(acuracy) of simulation by one "square" factor 3.