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Tomdidiot

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During the Second World War, the Brits converted a lot of units from one "type" to another.

They changed the 42nd (East Lancashire) Division from an Infantry Division into an Armoured Division. The changed the 52nd (Lowland) Division from an Infantry/Mountain Division into an Airborne Division. They also converted several territorial army divisions (54th East Anglian, 66th East Lancashire) into garrison units.

I'm pretty sure that the Germans also did this with some of their Infantry Divisions.

Anyway, I would really like the option to convert units from one type to another. I think that it is realistic, and it will be very useful in the game (converting experienced Infantry units into Mechanized units will be awesome).

I'd prefer it if it was added to DD:Arm in a patch, but would really really like for it to be in HoI3
 
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reignerok

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Obviously, it may has more cost than make a unit. I mean: if a mountain division costs 15 IC, when you convert a infantry division into a mountain division, it costs 20 IC.

Maybe it can have a low org in the firsts months, for a adaptation time.

And I think mot and mech infantry must be "more modern" infantry units. I mean (for example):

IV Infantry .... V Infantry....I Mot...II Mot..................I Mech....

I hope you can understand this, because my English is not very well.
 

Balesir

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I think the best way of doing this so far suggested is to separate divisions into three (or more, for special cases) 'elements' from a production/upgrade/reorganisation perspective. The first element is the manpower and light (personal) equipment, the second is the 'heavy' equipment including all weapons other than personal arms and all engineering gear and the third element is the transport and organic supply element. For a division in the field these elements are 'glued' together, but at supply bases (a new base type) they may be swapped - thus, potentially, changing an infantry unit to motorised, mechanised or whatever or upgrading the division to newer equipment.

Several other threads - including this one here - have discussion of this.
 

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Balesir said:
I think the best way of doing this so far suggested is to separate divisions into three (or more, for special cases) 'elements' from a production/upgrade/reorganisation perspective. The first element is the manpower and light (personal) equipment, the second is the 'heavy' equipment including all weapons other than personal arms and all engineering gear and the third element is the transport and organic supply element.

I disagree. abstract it, a quick example would be to convert Inf to mech inf might take 1/2 the IC cost of a new build and 1/3 of the time ie you just have to build the halftracks etc and do a quick retrain - units lose 15% experience in the process.

Mech Inf to Arm might cost 2/3 the IC of a new build and 1/3 of the time as you just have to build the tanks, again units lose 15% of experience.

The units just go into the build queue.

the percentages would need to be checked and play balanced to prevent people gaming the system to get certain Divs on the cheap but it seems doable.

Please, if you do this, abstract the production - the fastest way IMO to make HoI boring is to make it into a massive, detailed logistics simulator.
 

Balesir

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Husky65,

If the whole idea was just to get conversions fron Inf to Mot, etc., I might agree with this method, but my concept is for a wholly revised system that addresses several weaknesses with the current game while increasing the workload on the player to the minimum extent possible. I don't want a 'massive logistical simulator', either, if it means I as a player have to do the simulating! What I do want, though, is a plausible and realistically limiting logistical simulation with interesting decisions for me to make as a result. Let me try to summarise the whole thing for you.

Supply Centres
I introduce a new base type - 'supply centre' - that represents a mix of supply depot, railhead, equipment assembly plants and military training camp. It would be arguably 'more correct' to have these all as separate types of base but that would be complexity for its own sake, IMO, and unnecessary. Supply bases are similar to naval bases or air bases, but for land units. They have a size (1-10) and units may be thought of as 'based' at them, although Divisions will actually be automatically 'based at' the nearest one and draw supply from it, so this will be more-or-less transparent to the player.

Supply Centres actually do exist in the game now and hold resources, supplies and oil. The change here is that they are visible on the map and their placement is under the control of the player - because the placement of such bases is a key decision and may say a lot about an army's intentions.

Supply
Supply should come from Supply Centres as it does now. Land 'convoys', using TCs and vulnerable to attack by air or land (if adjacent to enemy land units and not protected), may be used to connect SCs. The 'length' of a supply route will count each province as 1 divided by modifiers for infrastructure and terrain. Provinces containing the source, the destination or both count at half value. The TCs allocated to the route divided by the route length gives the route capacity in both directions - sea convoys are revised to work in the same way. TCs are manufactured like sea convoys are now rather than deduced from ICs.

Supply from SCs to units relies on transport elements integral to the unit itself. ESE becomes the unit's supply element's capacity divided by the route length to the nearest allied SC; route length is a count of provinces divided by infrastructure and by movement and weather modifiers appropriate to the supply element type attached to the unit. All of this is, of course, automatic and visible to the player only as an ESE figure; it just means 'move too far from supply and you're stuffed', but how far is too far relies on several factors.

Trade
International trade must be set up as 'convoys' - either land or sea - from a source SC to a destination SC. This addresses the 'trade convoy freebie' issue and the 'can't trade with Nepal when at war because we have no sea connection - despite being right next door!' issue. The trade convoys are vulnerable to attack, as any other convoy, but part of the trade deal is "who supplies the shipping?" and attacking 'neutral' ships will have consequences...

Production
Units must be constructed somewhere - land units in a Supply Centre, naval units in a Naval Base and air units at an Air Base. This is nominated as the unit(s) is/are added to the production queue and is where they appear once complete. Factories are used from the area around the base the unit is made at and this affects the efficiency of the IC usage. Basically, making units at bases far from industry will be possible but slow and inefficient. This addresses the issue of a nation using all of its ICs to produce battleships at its one and only port, and similar oddities... A base can only produce as many units as its size at 100% rate - more reduces the rate proportionately - and bases may of course be bombed to reduce their effective 'size'.

Strategic Redeployment
Units may Strat.Redeploy only between bases; this takes up TCs or shipping convoys (as appropriate) according to the unit size and time according to the route length. Units in transit may be affected by attacks on the convoy route between the bases.

Unit Elements and Upgrades
Units are composed of three (or in a few cases more) elements. The base unit represents the trained manpower with personal kit and weapons only. The other elements are a 'heavy equipment' element and a 'transport and supply' element. These latter elements are 'attached' much as brigades are now. 'Heavy equipment' has a big effect on the unit's combat values; 'transport and supply' has an effect on ESE and may also increase unit speed, hardness and defensive values when combined with certain (light) 'heavy equipment' elements.

Rather than units 'magically' upgrading in the field, upgrades are done by swapping out old equipment elements for new. This must be done at a base and takes time dependant on the distance from which the upgrade elements must be drawn. Upgrade elements are created in bases just as units are - the route length between the base they are made in (or 'dropped' in, for 'second hand' elements) and the base the upgrading unit is in automatically determines the time to upgrade; TCs or convoys are used for this time, also.

The Mot/Mech/Inf issue comes in here as well, since these are essentially the same base units but with different HE and TS elements - elements that can be swapped in a supply centre. Cav might also be the same base unit type, but Mtn, Mar and Par would need specific training - though they could also receive Inf type HE and TS elements.

Potential 'additional' elements would be for air or sea landings (gliders and parachutes for the first, landing craft and other amphibious gear for the second). These would be 'one use', generally.

Certain circumstances - retreat to sea, surrender due to no retreat options - would separate the HE and TS elements from the base unit. Some of these elements - especially the TS elements, if real life considerations are to be modelled - could be captured and used by the victorious enemy.

Trading in military equipment would be handled by trading HE and TS elements - the base units would be loanable (expeditionary forces) but not directly tradable.

When units are added to the production queue, they would normally be added with the elements attached. Such usage would be just like the current system - a complete and fully functional unit pops out at the specified base when production is complete. The difference would be in upgrades and the possibility to re-equip for specific duties, if desired.

Optionally, TS elements could be attached to supply centres, boosting the TC available as long as they are assigned. General TC would be rail assets, so should not be convertible in the opposite direction!

Reinforcement
Reinforcement 'points' are required to reinforce units and these are distributed via the supply system just as supplies and oil are. Reinforcement should also take 'supplies' to represent the equipment losses, 'reinforcement points' being mostly MP. Reinforcement rate is affected by ESE.

So, you, see, there is a lot more to it than switching Inf to Mot or Mech - although that does get addressed more-or-less as a side effect. The only additional load on the player is (a) deciding where to put supply centres, (b) arranging upgrades (although you could just not bother and create new units with new gear) and (c) deciding up-front where to create units. This last you actually have to do now, but it is unreasonably limited and is done after the unit is already made, which seems a mite odd... Oh, and trade would be slightly more involved, since a 'from' and 'to' base would have to be specified as well as who provides the transport (although a default of the party offering the trade could be set). This last, incidentally, allows trade with USSR to be routed to Archangel (as was done in practice) when Lenningrad becomes too hazardous to use, and generally allows trade routes to be selected more freely.

This is obviously a system for HoI3, not a patch! But I think it does address several current issues and it has evolved to incorporate several comments and suggestions made here. More are, of course, welcome :)
 

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Balesir said:
This is obviously a system for HoI3, not a patch! But I think it does address several current issues and it has evolved to incorporate several comments and suggestions made here. More are, of course, welcome :)

God no, absract it - it is one of the strengths of the HoI series, if you want all that stuff wait for WiF. I'm way past wanting that level of micromanagement, remember how HoI 1 made you practically research wheel nuts and tyres before you could do trucks - HoI2+ skipping that level of pointless detail is an advance, please don't push to head us back in that sort of direction.

The most important thing in gaming is fun, turning HoI 3 into a logistics sim does not advance that.
 

Balesir

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husky65 said:
God no, absract it - it is one of the strengths of the HoI series, if you want all that stuff wait for WiF. I'm way past wanting that level of micromanagement, remember how HoI 1 made you practically research wheel nuts and tyres before you could do trucks - HoI2+ skipping that level of pointless detail is an advance, please don't push to head us back in that sort of direction.
OK, since what you wrote is basically a repeat of what you said the first time I take it you didn't read what I said, so let me spell it out very briefly.

The only 'level of micromanagement' involved is:
  • 1) Placing supply bases (instead of having them auto-assign) just as for other bases.

    2) Selecting a starting base for each unit as you add it to the production queue (instead of after it is made), and selecting equipment and logistic/transport elements for it if non-standard.

    3) Selecting to- and from-supply bases for foreign trades.

Hardly a strain. Upgrading, if you elect to do it, also needs a bit more attention. All else can be left to the automation.

In return, a slew of issues that have impinged on my "fun" and that of others are fixed.

husky65 said:
The most important thing in gaming is fun, turning HoI 3 into a logistics sim does not advance that.
"Fun" is definitely in the eye of the beholder. If you want a RTS game with no need to worry about tedious details like, oh, supply, morale and organisation there are plenty out there. HoI attempts to add depth to the gameplay by including such considerations and, if they are going to be included, it makes little sense to include them in such a way as to make either no difference or little sense. I for one relish the idea of having to consider logistical limitations - provided I don't have to micromanage the logistics themselves. Other posts around here suggest that others do, too.
 

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Balesir said:
"Fun" is definitely in the eye of the beholder. If you want a RTS game with no need to worry about tedious details like, oh, supply, morale and organisation there are plenty out there. HoI attempts to add depth to the gameplay by including such considerations and, if they are going to be included, it makes little sense to include them in such a way as to make either no difference or little sense. I for one relish the idea of having to consider logistical limitations - provided I don't have to micromanage the logistics themselves. Other posts around here suggest that others do, too.

You want to create more micromanagement. it is a step backwards - there are games in the works that cater for that level of detail, leave well enough alone, life is too short for a logistics sim.
 

Balesir

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husky65 said:
You want to create more micromanagement. it is a step backwards - there are games in the works that cater for that level of detail, leave well enough alone, life is too short for a logistics sim.
Well, you want to create a shallower, less involving game. It is a step backwards - there are games in the works that cater for simplified bad-guy bashing, leave well enough alone, life is too short for a simplistic frag-fest.
;)
 

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Balesir said:
Well, you want to create a shallower, less involving game. It is a step backwards - there are games in the works that cater for simplified bad-guy bashing, leave well enough alone, life is too short for a simplistic frag-fest.
;)


Certainly one of the less constructive posts, so why not justify it with some information? how does "leave the supply system as it is" create a game that is "shallower, less involving" than the existing game? do you feel that the existing game is shallow and uninvolving?

Also, by definition not changing isn't a step backwards, it is standing still and when you have it right not changing that part is a good idea.

re your earlier accusation that I didn't read your post, I did. I just don't agree with it, you'll have to learn to cope with that at some stage.

Oh and feel free to give a few examples of games in the works that are similar to the existing HoI2DD/A (those other "simplified bad-guy bashing" wargames that are on the way).
 

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husky65 said:
Certainly one of the less constructive posts, so why not justify it with some information?
Well, by copying your post with a few words changed this was a point I had hoped to make with a little humour, but I'm obviously not communicating successfully, so I'll just say 'sorry for my unclear message' and try again...

husky65 said:
how does "leave the supply system as it is" create a game that is "shallower, less involving" than the existing game? do you feel that the existing game is shallow and uninvolving?
No, I don't think the current game is shallow - but it does have some serious flaws that niggle at me every time I play it. I would like to encourage and, if possible, assist by my posts a sequel game that fixes these annoying non sequiturs without complicating game play any more than absolutely neccessary.

Just to recap a few of the issues I have and to show they are non-trivial:
  • - Playing as Britain, once war starts I cannot trade with Nepal, since I have no free access to a Nepalese port (!!!)

    - To create a division of the Indian army I have first to ship all the raw materials required to Britain, build the division in England, Scotland or Wales and then ship it to India. The Indian manpower is assumed, bizzarrely, already to be in the UK...

    - In supplying overseas forces I have no choice where I ship supplies for them - one port per continent seems to be designated for me semi-randomly. Luckily, this makes little difference to which units are supplied and which not (as this seems to be random in any event) and does not limit the operating range of my troops at all - just the total land area that I may conquer...

    - My only option as new troop types are developed is to create new, 'green' units of the new types, whereas historically the most experienced units were upgraded to motorised/mechanised in general.

    - Playing as Germany I can dedicate all of German industry to Naval building and build more ships than Great Britain possibly can - despite having far fewer dockyards.

    - If some of my naval bases are captured, any complete ships there will be destroyed (unless I get them out quickly) - but those partly built are apparently immune, being merely teleported to another port...

    - The amount of resource supply from territories not connected by land to the capital is limited by my merchant fleet, even if the 'offshore' territory has its own local factories, but the amount of resources traded from other nations is not.

    - Actually attacking through desert or mountains is hard work, but once they have been passed, shipping supplies through them is no problem at all...
In all there are several aspects of good strategy and common sense that I have to abandon if I play HoI2: DD/A as it stands. For me this deliberate disregard of logic spoils the fun - can you understand that?

husky65 said:
Also, by definition not changing isn't a step backwards, it is standing still and when you have it right not changing that part is a good idea.
Sorry, I was under the impression that you wanted more abstraction in all areas, and that was the basis of my comment. That I don't think that the logistics part is right I hope I have made clear (and explained why).

husky65 said:
re your earlier accusation that I didn't read your post, I did. I just don't agree with it, you'll have to learn to cope with that at some stage.
Your not agreeing with me is fine (and is obvious) - what I was trying to say was that you seemed to be not merely disagreeing with but disregarding everything I wrote. I was trying to communicate - you seemed just to want to reiterate what you had already said (and I heard you the first time).

What I was trying to say was the only 'micromanagement' I am advocating is to place supply bases as is done for other bases instead of having them automatically designated, and designating trade ports ditto. How hard is that? Other than that the player tasks are exactly as now (although deployment bases for builds have to be decided when building is started, not when it's finished, but no additional decision needs to be made - just an earlier one). The decisions to be made are decidedly strategic, not tactical - and in return all the annoying nonsenses I listed earlier can go away.

husky65 said:
Oh and feel free to give a few examples of games in the works that are similar to the existing HoI2DD/A (those other "simplified bad-guy bashing" wargames that are on the way).
Heh, well, what "games in the works that cater for that level of detail" did you have in mind, exactly? ;)
 

unmerged(53009)

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Jan 18, 2006
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Balesir your ideas are exactly what I am looking for.

They would go a long long way to eliminating the frustrations that I find in the current representaton of supply/logistics and production/upgrade.

I would be happy with any micromanagement which kept the AI out of my supply chain, however, I also feel that a manual/auto supply option as an option at the game start up, possibly after selecting which country you wish to play as, would need to be factored in for those satisfied with the current mode of operation.
 

Balesir

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Thanks, Ouglyus.

Personally, I would manually control my supply convoys, as well, but I do recognise that some folk dislike even this level of involvement in supply, so I think an auto-convoy option is essential. Actually, I would use it myself in MP unless there were sufficient team members to have someone look after it fairly exclusively.

I don't think the 'auto-supply' need be set at game start, though - just have it like the 'auto-convoy' setting is now. Actually, you could even set the Supply Base building to be AI controlled and have defaults for the from- and to-bases in trade deals for those who really don't care for strategic logistics planning. That way it would be possible to play with no additional player input at all - just a supply system that makes a little more sense.
 

unmerged(63614)

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Dec 16, 2006
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just a small point

posted by huskey65
Also, by definition not changing isn't a step backwards, it is standing still and when you have it right not changing that part is a good idea.

could people try not to talk in double negatives it hurt me head? :rolleyes: !
 

unmerged(78917)

First Lieutenant
Jun 22, 2007
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Balesir,

I just ran across this thread and the more I read your approach the more I really like your ideas. I think the Supply Centers are a good solution to many issues in the game. A game flaw (to my thinking) is the ability to create huge stockpiles of raw materials with no repercussions for doing so. The Supply Centers could be used as strategic reserves centers that have a finite capacity for holding raw materials therefore restricting how much a player can store. The player could build more centers in order to increase his strategic reserve, but there would be a cost for doing so. They could feed the manufacturing sites wherever they happen to be. (your India example) You could also stockpile supplies and fuel in areas where you are preparing an offensive. Your idea has many positive attributes.

I also really like the idea of TC’s being manufactured. I think they should consume supplies and fuel/energy just like any other military unit as they move material. The type of terrain they move through combined with the infrastructure % would determine the amount of consumption. Therefore transporting metal ore across mountains would cost more then through a plains section, just like in real life.

Ouglyus made a good point about not wanting the AI managing his supply chain. I also understand husky65’s dislike micro managing details. I think a HOI 3 should have manual/auto settings for all these types of tasks. This would let people tailor the game down to the detail level they are comfortable with.
 

Lord Finnish

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Also it would be nice to convert ships. Like if your favourite ship has massive kill rates but is outdated you could upgrade it. It would take several months and some IC.
 

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Hi, TonRich,

Thanks for the vote of confidence! :)

I, too, understand the concerns of those who don't want additional fiddly detail and micromanagement, but there are some gameplay issues out there that I find just too big to ignore. What I am aiming for is a way to address these issues with the absolute minimum of additional complexity.

Other advantages I hope would flow from this approach are:

1) that the locus of an upcoming major attack should be more evident because a Supply Base would be needed reasonably close to the current front to support the attack,

2) infrastructure strikes would be useful to hamper attackers but used against defenders would be a two-edged sword, since a successful advance's supply would be curtailed

3) major attacks would be slower to prepare, since a build-up of supplies in the right place would be needed for maximum effectiveness

4) TC could be not only attackable, but also tradeable - arguably the most valuable thing given to the USSR by lease-lend was trucks to enable their supply chain

Lord Finnish,

I agree - and if a naval unit is 'divided in three' as I suggest for land units, then hull and engines are one element, crew and basic maritime gear a second and armament and weapon systems (fire control, etc.) a third. Just as with land units, swapping out one or more elements (in a naval base, for naval units) would be possible but take time and end with reduced Org.

Basically, in the build queue you would pick a unit type that defaults to the latest version of each element, but additional options exist for (a) adding different ('obsolete') elements to save cost and (b) making just individual 'elements', to be used to upgrade existing units. These would then be swapped in an appropriate base - the unit would move to the build queue for that base (taking up 'slots' as if being built), reappearing at the same base later with a new configuration and low Org...

So far I propose land units being made up of (i) a manpower element of men and personal equipment, (ii) an 'equipment' element of heavy weapons and general equipment (engineering gear, hospitals, field kitchens etc.) and (iii) a 'transport' component consisting of transport for supply, equipment and (in some cases) men. For naval units see above.

What about air units? I'm not sure, but maybe (i) manpower and personal equipment, (ii) aircraft and (iii) ground support elements and equipment. This way the problem some folk have with rebasing air units being too quick could be addressed by saying that the ground support element does not get moved when justflying to a new base (it gets left behind, much like the 'equipment' element of a land unit might if the unit flees, or when it is evacuated by sea - in which case the transport element may also get left behind). 'Full' rebasing could be done by moving the unit by convoy and/or land supply line. I prefer the use of convoys and land supply lines for non-amphibious invasion strategic redeployment anyway - I suggest removing 'Transports' as a separate unit type and a special 'special transport' element for amphibious landings that gets left in the beachhead province.
 

unmerged(83573)

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I think idea about supply depots/raw material depots is great.Only problem which remains is how to prioritise certain segment of supplies/raw material.So to be efficient as possible you'll have to take care of convoys manually which brings lots of micromanagement.Mind you that I have in mind sea convoy engine in HOI2, and something tells me that that is common screwup in lots of games.Unless engine changes to better in HOI3 there will still be lots of angry hair pulling from our heads.( I got almost bold until I just gave up, so it grew back :rofl: )
 

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Yes, there needs to be some sort of simple supply chain planning algorithm in play that scales supply to usage. Also maybe a supply centre should have a 'priority' button like units do for reinforcements and upgrades? This would allow you to prioritise bases that will be supporting an upcoming attack.