Hey, i am asking for some advices how to compose division (to this particular game), i think i will need two types of units: line infantry and breakthrough armor. For standard infantry i want 2xINF, TD and ENG, the reason why i put TD over infantry regiment, is because Poland don't have enough manpower, and TD with heavy tank armor researched gives armor to the division so it gots that mighty armor advantage modifier, besides denying enemy panzers of course, i don't know if there is something that could replace it (artillery don't count because of poor leadership, and TD techs share with tank), i really need this manpower, because i'm planning to field 40 of this divisions, next type is armor, here, i'm not sure if i want combined arms bonus with 2xARM, INF and TD, or just go with 3xARM and TD for thickness, this i want around 10. Maybe someone got better idea for composition, but as Poland i can only afford (up to date and with doctrines nearly up to date) INF, ARM and TD techs, because for the military i have to sacrifice most of the industry tab, and obviously i am not even opening planes and ships. Maybe someone actually played such campaign? HELP needed
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I'm going for 2 full armies (25 divisions) with 2 tank corps in it, but polish manpower is problematic
You're going to have issues with IC trying for that build. Better to go for AT with good piercing.
The TDs have good piercing, but poor armor. Any German divisions with AT or Armor are likely to be able to pierce it anyway, and TDs are a LOT more expensive than basic AT. My suggestion is to keep your Officer Ratio at 140%, research the Infantry Warfare and Mass Assault doctrines and infantry equipment techs to current level (or a step above shortly before the war starts - no point in boosting them early and then paying the penalty again at each level), and then utilize terrain to the max. If you think you don't have enough Leadership to field ART (2 techs, plus 2 related doctrines), then you're going to have SERIOUS problems researching all of the armor techs and doctrines needed to make your TDs effective.
I've played Hungary in a number of games, and they've go less Leadership than Poland. A properly teched-up 3xINF+ART can hold its own reasonably well against a German infantry division in open terrain, but you're so far outnumbered that it's a hopeless fight, where you'll be facing 3:1 or 4:1 odds in many combats. Using rivers, forests, and other obstacles to provide a defensive advantage, you should be able to hold out for a long time with Poland. You might be able to fortify a few of the more vulnerable border provinces (that takes a lot of IC), or in key locations a short distance BEHIND the border, so the second-line defenders have time to build up a "dug in" bonus before the Germans reach them.
Remember, a 3xINF+ART division will shred an otherwise equal 2xINF+ART+AT, because the AT division brings almost NOTHING to the fight that's of any use against infantry, making it a wasted brigade slot EXCEPT against armor. ENG provides significant penalty reductions for Urban combat, river crossings, and dense woods, but is nearly as useless in the open plains as AT is against Infantry. AC can give you some Hardness and a limited amount of Armor for an otherwise unarmored division, but German AT will inevitably Pierce it, so it ends up being a lot of IC for the slight Hardness boost.
Ultimately, it's the German armor that's going to be the problem, so unless you have AT researched ahead of Germany's Armor techs (that last level of tech is going to be difficult, with the ahead-of-time penalty), tanks of your own (which will eat ALL of your available Leadership), air superiority (like that will happen) or a few TDs in the right places (which will eat MOST of your Leadership, and is still only partially effective - they can Pierce, but will be pierced in return), the Germans will have an advantage. You simply can't afford Leadership-intensive solutions to the problem. All you can do is minimize their advantages and force them to fight where YOU want the fight.
Enjoy the challenge.
I've played Hungary in a number of games, and they've go less Leadership than Poland. A properly teched-up 3xINF+ART can hold its own reasonably well against a German infantry division in open terrain, but you're so far outnumbered that it's a hopeless fight, where you'll be facing 3:1 or 4:1 odds in many combats. Using rivers, forests, and other obstacles to provide a defensive advantage, you should be able to hold out for a long time with Poland. You might be able to fortify a few of the more vulnerable border provinces (that takes a lot of IC), or in key locations a short distance BEHIND the border, so the second-line defenders have time to build up a "dug in" bonus before the Germans reach them.
Remember, a 3xINF+ART division will shred an otherwise equal 2xINF+ART+AT, because the AT division brings almost NOTHING to the fight that's of any use against infantry, making it a wasted brigade slot EXCEPT against armor. ENG provides significant penalty reductions for Urban combat, river crossings, and dense woods, but is nearly as useless in the open plains as AT is against Infantry. AC can give you some Hardness and a limited amount of Armor for an otherwise unarmored division, but German AT will inevitably Pierce it, so it ends up being a lot of IC for the slight Hardness boost.
Ultimately, it's the German armor that's going to be the problem, so unless you have AT researched ahead of Germany's Armor techs (that last level of tech is going to be difficult, with the ahead-of-time penalty), tanks of your own (which will eat ALL of your available Leadership), air superiority (like that will happen) or a few TDs in the right places (which will eat MOST of your Leadership, and is still only partially effective - they can Pierce, but will be pierced in return), the Germans will have an advantage. You simply can't afford Leadership-intensive solutions to the problem. All you can do is minimize their advantages and force them to fight where YOU want the fight.
Enjoy the challenge.
There was a pretty good AAR about a Poland running defensively against Germany. Check it out.
Save a bit of manpower and IC cost by upgrading cavalry to tanks. It's much faster upgarding to tanks then it is to build new divisions. I've not got any real advice for the fight though, except to outfit your hqs with motor divisions and tanks or armored cars.
That alone will see you get much farther than the AI Poland because it never outfits its hqs with fighting men.
That alone will see you get much farther than the AI Poland because it never outfits its hqs with fighting men.
Some good advice in the previous post, but also some questionable ones. Upgrading CAV to ARM or MOT can save IC, and I almost ALWAYS put at least one INF brigade with my HQs (and often convert them into HQ+2xINF+ART combat divisions), but putting MOT or tanks/ACs with the HQ just slows those mobile units down to the lethargic speed of the HQ for no good reason. Granted, you CAN speed up the HQ with armor doctrines, but again that requires Leadership which could be MUCH better utilized in other places.
Note that the AI has no clue about how to use specialized units, and throws Armor, Infantry, Garrison troops, Marines, or other forces at you with no consideration for their strengths and weaknesses. Take advantage of that, and use specialized divisions to gain advantages: use divisions with AT where the Germans field armor, and divisions with additional INF or ART where they don't. Try to draw their armor into attacking you in woods or across rivers, where they've got penalties. Put ENG in places where you'll be defending a river or dense woods, but keep those divisions out of the open where they'll be at a disadvantage. Use your own armor against German units with no AT capability (Mountain troops, garrison units, etc.) and Infantry with Artillery against their AT-equipped units. Use the right tool for the job, while the AI can't tell the difference between a hammer and a saw, and you've got a significant edge.
As pointed out earlier, check out the AARs for Poland for some tips. Things may have changed (Armor/Piercing mechanics) since some of the earlier AARs were written with the "Semper Fi" or "For the Motherland" expansions in mind, but some of the advice will still apply.
Note that the AI has no clue about how to use specialized units, and throws Armor, Infantry, Garrison troops, Marines, or other forces at you with no consideration for their strengths and weaknesses. Take advantage of that, and use specialized divisions to gain advantages: use divisions with AT where the Germans field armor, and divisions with additional INF or ART where they don't. Try to draw their armor into attacking you in woods or across rivers, where they've got penalties. Put ENG in places where you'll be defending a river or dense woods, but keep those divisions out of the open where they'll be at a disadvantage. Use your own armor against German units with no AT capability (Mountain troops, garrison units, etc.) and Infantry with Artillery against their AT-equipped units. Use the right tool for the job, while the AI can't tell the difference between a hammer and a saw, and you've got a significant edge.
As pointed out earlier, check out the AARs for Poland for some tips. Things may have changed (Armor/Piercing mechanics) since some of the earlier AARs were written with the "Semper Fi" or "For the Motherland" expansions in mind, but some of the advice will still apply.
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Thanks for replies, i did use CAV -> ARM tactic, and actually afforded army i suggest in first post, pushed germans to the oder and warta rivers, and even managed to hold it for a bit of time, but small manpower got me, the tank template was good, but biggest weakness in my game was infantry eating all the manpower, next game i will just try spam tanks and replace tank destroyers in INF divisions for armored units (i still don't know), also, i have got more than 800 hours and i know the basics, i just don't know how to field a reasonable sized army with such little manpower number, i should specify that i won't be using artillery because i need 4 techs for it, and for armor just 2 more (that's why i wanted TD, cause they are related to armor doctrine tech), and i want to beat the germans, not just defend. I was thinking, that manpower issue can be solved by raising partisants and disbanding them, but they build half of year, so maybe i will go to war with Lithuania first to build them, i don't know. Anyway, thanks for help, i didn't knew the tank destroyers were such bad, i thought i could research heavy armor tech and they will provide armor in my infantry template, but this didn't worked. And what AAR means? I have only read the hoi3 wiki how to play Poland, but it is a bit outdated.
also i went for TD because they don't have such big penalties in defending cities as tanks, but yeah, that was a waste of two research slots
AAR = After-Action Report. Basically, it's a description of the campaign, usually done step by step as the writer plays the campaign. There's a section of the forum dedicated to them. Look for the alphabetical list and find Poland.
It's sometimes possible to replace one INF in a division with a second ART to save manpower: 2xINF+2xART, which has similar or better hitting power than 3xINF+ART, but is a little less resilient. A number of German players used to do that to free up some manpower to reorganize a few fresh divisions while bogged down in the Soviet Union. It works well in some circumstances, such a holding good defensive terrain or making concentrated attacks (the small unit width allows for greater stacking), but isn't good for a division tenaciously holding off repeated multiple attacks. You'll run out of ORG significantly faster than with 3 INF, even though you'll do the same or more damage.
It's sometimes possible to replace one INF in a division with a second ART to save manpower: 2xINF+2xART, which has similar or better hitting power than 3xINF+ART, but is a little less resilient. A number of German players used to do that to free up some manpower to reorganize a few fresh divisions while bogged down in the Soviet Union. It works well in some circumstances, such a holding good defensive terrain or making concentrated attacks (the small unit width allows for greater stacking), but isn't good for a division tenaciously holding off repeated multiple attacks. You'll run out of ORG significantly faster than with 3 INF, even though you'll do the same or more damage.
I really must try out a Polish campaign. I was assuming that manpower to fill many divisions would be tough, so if there aren't enough tanks to fill an army sized command then they definitely should be placed among the corps commanders and, depending on how tactfully played, the Polish commanders will become on par and exceed the German commanders in skill, because the AI has never optimized their armies by putting divisions in with their HQs as far as I have ever seen. Just tossing this out there, as it sure could be a difficult proposition while defending the home front, but try to acquire the Czech cores and release them to have an ally that can hopefully furnish itself with the Czech's decent arms manufacture.
If you've got enough IC to build tanks, and enough Leadership to research both the techs (4) and the doctrines (at least 3-4) needed to use them effectively, then you've got plenty of IC and Leadership to spam 2xART (2 techs, 2 doctrines) in every division, plus one with the HQs (but you'll still need one "front line" brigade with the HQ for it to participate in combat).
You'll probably want AT in one of two divisions per Corps to deal with the Light Armor that Germany will inevitably field, but not in every division, to deal with everything else. You only REALLY need to research the Ammunition and Gun Carriage tech to boost its Piercing, the rest is nice to have, but "optional".
If I can put ART in all of Hungary's 14 starting divisions, plus all 5 HQs before the outbreak of war in '39, and also build 4 more complete divisions and a couple more Fighter units with their limited IC (30 effective IC with the various ministers and laws available), Poland should have no problem with its greater IC in building a no-frills army capable of holding the Germans for a long time at some convenient river lines or other terrain features. Pushing into Germany is asking for a LOT, however.
Your big advantage is that you already know when the war will start, possibly give or take a couple of days (the AI works on a schedule), so you can build your forces cheaply at a low state of mobilization, then mobilize a month or two before the war begins. Your initial mobilization provides a 50% cost reduction, so you can bring all of that stuff up to full strength at HALF of the cost difference between its un-mobilized strength and its full strength. Your weak point is that your troops can't start acquiring a "dug-in" bonus until war is declared, so any units on the front that are attacked immediately will not have that bonus.
Now I'm tempted to do a Polish run.
[Update - Started a Polish campaign, Normal difficulty.
Jan. 1, 1936 - Poland has significantly more Leadership and IC than I've had with a couple of games with Hungary (roughly 9 versus 7 Leadership, and somewhere around 37 versus 27 base IC), plus a LOT more starting troops and a few extra techs already researched, but I'll be facing Germany instead of the Soviets. Pumped about 4+ points of Leadership in to Espionage temporarily (10 Defensive spies first, then 10 into France and Czechoslovakia), 2 points into Diplomacy for now, half a point into Officers, and the small remainder into Research of Agriculture and Education. Set domestic spy priority to max level, and 3 pips on Counter-Espionage.
Building several ART brigades, one AT brigade, one INF brigade, and a one INT for now. After I put one ART in each division, I'll begin putting AT into one division per Corps in place of INF, and attach the spare INFs to the Corps HQs.
Jan.2 - made several trades to sell small quantities of Coal to potential friends or allies to boost Relations, a big sale of supplies to the Soviets for cash, and a smaller one to the US of A to improve Relations.
Jan. 10 - second round of small coal sales to several countries, and small supply sales to US and SU. More importantly, my Neutrality dipped under 70. Changed my Production laws from Partial Mobilization down to Full Civilian Economy. Next day, the "Prepare for War" decision was available. Activated the decision, then switched to Full Mobilization laws. The decreasing Neutrality should lower my Consumer Demand over time, as well as allow future "shenanigans".
Jan. 31 - Enough spies and Diplomats for now. Dropped Espionage down to 0.6 points, Diplomacy to around 0.2, and put all of the rest into Researching mostly Infantry weapons and doctrines. Not sure if I can afford Armor or not, but I do intend to contest the air in the East while half the German air force is tied up against the French and British. I will boost Officer Ratio drastically when I've got better modifiers to it; it just isn't worthwhile at -50%.
Jan. 20 - purchased metal and rares from those countries I sold Coal to, at lower prices due to the improved relations.
Jan. 31 - more small coal sales and metal/rare purchases. Changed domestic spy mission by placing 1 pip each into Party Support and National Unity, still with 3 pips in Counter-Espionage. Set spy mission in France to Tech theft, CZE to Counter-Espionage to rid them of any German spies who might begin lowering their NU.
Now up to around August '36. If I can lower my Neutrality enough, with the help of Germany's annexation of Austria, I'm hoping to invade and annex Czechoslovakia, which would deprive Germany of all those tasty Cores and free manpower. That will have the side effect of reducing my Neutrality to 0 and practically eliminate the need for consumer goods, and I can then remain permanently mobilized. By building all my costly ART up front at Volunteer Army and Basic Training, I can switch to 3 Year Draft and Specialist Training when I mobilize, and fill up the ranks to at least 90% at half price with highly trained recruits before I run out of Manpower. With the better recruiting laws, the Manpower and Officer pools will have bonuses, not penalties, and I'll have some additional Manpower from CZE, so hopefully I'll fill in the missing personnel well before Germany declares on me. I'm also figuring on blitzing East Prussia as soon as Germany declares war, and eliminating those isolated divisions quickly. As with the SU, pushing back doesn't solve the long-term issue, you need to remove divisions from the map. I'll see how it goes over the weekend. ]
You'll probably want AT in one of two divisions per Corps to deal with the Light Armor that Germany will inevitably field, but not in every division, to deal with everything else. You only REALLY need to research the Ammunition and Gun Carriage tech to boost its Piercing, the rest is nice to have, but "optional".
If I can put ART in all of Hungary's 14 starting divisions, plus all 5 HQs before the outbreak of war in '39, and also build 4 more complete divisions and a couple more Fighter units with their limited IC (30 effective IC with the various ministers and laws available), Poland should have no problem with its greater IC in building a no-frills army capable of holding the Germans for a long time at some convenient river lines or other terrain features. Pushing into Germany is asking for a LOT, however.
Your big advantage is that you already know when the war will start, possibly give or take a couple of days (the AI works on a schedule), so you can build your forces cheaply at a low state of mobilization, then mobilize a month or two before the war begins. Your initial mobilization provides a 50% cost reduction, so you can bring all of that stuff up to full strength at HALF of the cost difference between its un-mobilized strength and its full strength. Your weak point is that your troops can't start acquiring a "dug-in" bonus until war is declared, so any units on the front that are attacked immediately will not have that bonus.
Now I'm tempted to do a Polish run.
[Update - Started a Polish campaign, Normal difficulty.
Jan. 1, 1936 - Poland has significantly more Leadership and IC than I've had with a couple of games with Hungary (roughly 9 versus 7 Leadership, and somewhere around 37 versus 27 base IC), plus a LOT more starting troops and a few extra techs already researched, but I'll be facing Germany instead of the Soviets. Pumped about 4+ points of Leadership in to Espionage temporarily (10 Defensive spies first, then 10 into France and Czechoslovakia), 2 points into Diplomacy for now, half a point into Officers, and the small remainder into Research of Agriculture and Education. Set domestic spy priority to max level, and 3 pips on Counter-Espionage.
Building several ART brigades, one AT brigade, one INF brigade, and a one INT for now. After I put one ART in each division, I'll begin putting AT into one division per Corps in place of INF, and attach the spare INFs to the Corps HQs.
Jan.2 - made several trades to sell small quantities of Coal to potential friends or allies to boost Relations, a big sale of supplies to the Soviets for cash, and a smaller one to the US of A to improve Relations.
Jan. 10 - second round of small coal sales to several countries, and small supply sales to US and SU. More importantly, my Neutrality dipped under 70. Changed my Production laws from Partial Mobilization down to Full Civilian Economy. Next day, the "Prepare for War" decision was available. Activated the decision, then switched to Full Mobilization laws. The decreasing Neutrality should lower my Consumer Demand over time, as well as allow future "shenanigans".
Jan. 31 - Enough spies and Diplomats for now. Dropped Espionage down to 0.6 points, Diplomacy to around 0.2, and put all of the rest into Researching mostly Infantry weapons and doctrines. Not sure if I can afford Armor or not, but I do intend to contest the air in the East while half the German air force is tied up against the French and British. I will boost Officer Ratio drastically when I've got better modifiers to it; it just isn't worthwhile at -50%.
Jan. 20 - purchased metal and rares from those countries I sold Coal to, at lower prices due to the improved relations.
Jan. 31 - more small coal sales and metal/rare purchases. Changed domestic spy mission by placing 1 pip each into Party Support and National Unity, still with 3 pips in Counter-Espionage. Set spy mission in France to Tech theft, CZE to Counter-Espionage to rid them of any German spies who might begin lowering their NU.
Now up to around August '36. If I can lower my Neutrality enough, with the help of Germany's annexation of Austria, I'm hoping to invade and annex Czechoslovakia, which would deprive Germany of all those tasty Cores and free manpower. That will have the side effect of reducing my Neutrality to 0 and practically eliminate the need for consumer goods, and I can then remain permanently mobilized. By building all my costly ART up front at Volunteer Army and Basic Training, I can switch to 3 Year Draft and Specialist Training when I mobilize, and fill up the ranks to at least 90% at half price with highly trained recruits before I run out of Manpower. With the better recruiting laws, the Manpower and Officer pools will have bonuses, not penalties, and I'll have some additional Manpower from CZE, so hopefully I'll fill in the missing personnel well before Germany declares on me. I'm also figuring on blitzing East Prussia as soon as Germany declares war, and eliminating those isolated divisions quickly. As with the SU, pushing back doesn't solve the long-term issue, you need to remove divisions from the map. I'll see how it goes over the weekend. ]
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Went a little further over the weekend, to the end of '36. So far, I've got ART in close to a dozen divisions, and a couple divisions with AT. One Interceptor is complete, so now I've got a decent 3xINT group that should stand up to the German planes once the techs and doctrines are complete. I'll probably build a second group by mid '39; they're light on Manpower usage, and don't use officers. It beats having German TAC and CAS ripping my troops apart, with no choice but to sit and take it.
Neutrality is down to just a shade below 20, thanks to the "Prepare for War" decision. The "Anschluss" event for Germany should knock around 5-10 more points off that, so I've got to use spies to create at least 10 points of "scare" to drive that down to where I can DoW CZE by some time in '38, before Germany gets all of those freebies. Hopefully, my own spies in CZE will take out enough German spies to at least delay Munich a bit, until I take CZE out of the equation and make it a moot point. Even if I evacuate CZE afterwards, and release it as a puppet the moment that Germany declares war on me, at least Germany won't get the manpower bonuses and free Cores that it normally gets by decision.
Neutrality is down to just a shade below 20, thanks to the "Prepare for War" decision. The "Anschluss" event for Germany should knock around 5-10 more points off that, so I've got to use spies to create at least 10 points of "scare" to drive that down to where I can DoW CZE by some time in '38, before Germany gets all of those freebies. Hopefully, my own spies in CZE will take out enough German spies to at least delay Munich a bit, until I take CZE out of the equation and make it a moot point. Even if I evacuate CZE afterwards, and release it as a puppet the moment that Germany declares war on me, at least Germany won't get the manpower bonuses and free Cores that it normally gets by decision.
Not well. I was able to hold against most of the German ground units, but their airpower just ate my units up. When you've got the combat progress bar showing 30% for the German attacker, that's good for the defender (me). When their bombers hit, that jumped up a point or two on each run, and by the end of 2 weeks my front line was wrecked. Germany apparently did nothing against France in the air, and their air power was practically all on the eastern front. Basically, I held out a month or two longer than Poland did historically, but still lost.
[ Note - I probably should have played it out as a GiE, to see how badly Germany did against the Soviets without the big chunk of Manpower that they lost in Poland. On the other hand, their generals probably had significantly better stats due to the increased combat experience. ]
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Sounds like my France campaign, the game probably have to start in 1924 for me to have a chance or maybe if i direct in 1936 if possible.
Might it work to make his line divisions as 3xinf 1xfart and put his anti AT in the Corps HQ along with 2xinf?
Stack along the eastern bank of rivers and in cities. Germany's armor isn't super duper by the Poland fight so maybe some Corps and Army HQs playing line backer with AT guns where needed would be enough?
As long as their piercing is higher than the enemy armor, it should be enough to at least delay the panzers. The problem is getting sufficient numbers of forces to where they need to be.
The real problem wasn't Germany's tanks, it was their air power. With a mix of 3xINF+ART and 2xINF+ART+AT, as well as up-to-date Land Doctrines, I was able to inflict 2:1 or 3:1 casualties against the Germans in most of the normal terrain battles (plains, woods, hills), and considerably better while defending a river, but the attrition due to near-constant air attack eventually drained enough Strength and Organization over the course of several days that my divisions broke first anyway. Having lower Commander skills at Corps level than Germany meant that I was less able to rotate fresh units in and depleted units out of combat, since the replacements would rarely advance up to the front line. Most of my units would have been better-served by AA instead of AT, and the AT and ART brigades were the first to lose Strength and Organization from those air attacks, since they're only 1/3 the size of the Infantry brigades but take an equal share of the abuse.
I had the same problem playing France: German air attacks broke the units holding the Maginot Line in only a few days, even though the ground attacks showed only 1% combat progress for the Germans. If you can't contest the air, you're going to lose on the ground.
I had the same problem playing France: German air attacks broke the units holding the Maginot Line in only a few days, even though the ground attacks showed only 1% combat progress for the Germans. If you can't contest the air, you're going to lose on the ground.