Divine Wind - Developer Diary #6

[Besuchov]

Divine Wind Dev Diary 6 – It came from the plains...

So, this week a faint smell of horse has settled over the office. Why, you ask? Well, it could be because we have turned our attention to the open steppes.

Over the ages, European and Chinese monarchs alike have sent wary glances towards the large plains in the east(or west as the case may be), from where bloodthirsty hordes have periodically flooded over their borders looking for gold and the lamentation of women, only to disappear as quickly as they appeared. In EU3 these states used to be very similar to all other states, and you could reason with them like you could with anyone else... this has now changed.

To make the horde nations bring a new aspect to the game we have assigned them a new government type that will give them a whole new functionality.

First of all is the change to how a country with this feature works diplomatically. For the horde, the default state is no longer peace but war. The only viable options when dealing with hordes will be war or submission, submission in this case meaning that the horde is paid tribute or accepts the vassalization of their victim. This will turn the hordes away from being diplomatic partners - which you can lock into your civilized system of alliances and royal marriages - into warlike tribes that you need to keep a constant watch on. You can pay them off or send expeditions to suppress them, but sooner or later they will rise again. This constant state of war will not affect war exhaustion like other wars, so you don't have to make peace with hordes, just keep them under control with your armies.

So, if you can't negotiate with them for provinces, how do you take their lands? Well, as I said the hordes represent uncivilized nomadic tribes, so the solution is to civilize the lands in which they live. To enable you to do that you can now send colonists to lands owned by hordes. These work much like regular colonists except that you don't get ownership of the province until the colony turns into a city. When this happens you will simply conquer the province. But be aware that your colonists are very vulnerable; at any time the nomadic hordes can come along and burn your colony, so you will have to use your armies to protect them.

So what is life like as a horde? Why would you want to be these unwashed brutes? Well, you get a couple of new bonuses, including increased combat strength and attrition tolerance when fighting on plains in your own lands. And then there is the loot. When you loot enemy provinces you can now extract more gold that usual and you also get military tradition, so the more you loot the more powerful you become until... you have to go home and beat down your uppity brother who has started eying the crown. But it doesn't have to end like that. After years of hard living on the plains you can also amass enough success that you can change your horde empire into a civilized state and go on from there to even bigger arenas.

That's it for this week, now we'll get back to getting this thing properly balanced and also working on the feature that will be the topic of next week's dev diary.

Thomas Johansson
Associate Producer and Project Lead on Europa Universalis III: Divine Wind

edit: The Sea People are not a horde

 

[Besuchov]

Atm they treat eachother like they treat the softer peoples.

 

[Captain Gars]

I'm just wondering whether being in a state of war with all countries doesn't put them at a very disadvantaged position.

At the moment the Golden Horde does not share your worries...

 

[Captain Gars]

can you demande nations to become your vasal as a horde ?

Yes you can.

 

[Captain Gars]

I'd hate it if either were treated just like, say, the Kazakhs.

Any horde country can easily be modded back to its pre-expansion version for those who prefere that.

 

[Doomdark]

Uhuh.
We will see how 'balanced' this is when the game comes.

Any progress is progress and usually can be modded more favourable.
Golde Horde was a state, not just a horde.
Was Kazan a horde?
Crima and Astrakhan?
Jurchens?
Yuan?
North American tribal federations?

The Golden Horde and its successors were all definitely still largely nomadic. Where they had "cities", they were almost all razed or marginalized in the process of the Russian colonization (e.g. Sarai.) The system in Divine Wind should mimic real history rather well, with the construction of forts/colonies to consolidate horde provinces.

 

[Captain Gars]

If the 'Horde' status is a government type, is there the possibility of changing it, as well? Might the Golden Horde gradually settle down and become a 'normal' despotic state?

Yes there will be a way (very hard) to achieve this.

Is the "horde lands can be colonized" feature something we'll be able to mod to other government forms to have?

Yes.

Will there be any new events or decisions related to this new system, such as an event to give you a free colonist if you border a horde province?

As of now, yes, there is a modifier for that.

urmm it sounds awful. being constant war with everyone will make them piss easy to conquer, you just have to make the first step (i doubt the AI will attack a large nation w/o others doing everything else).

I'll let these two gentlemen answer this:

The hordes aren't going to be kicking in the gates of Moscow unless you don't pay them tribute. The way I see it, the idea is that you never know when they will attack, unlike now when you have formal declarations of war. You simply pay off the rampaging barbarians and hope they are satisfied for as long as possible. The system will be fine with a bit of balancing.

Except the part where you can't conquer them since you can't make peace-for-province with them...

Speaking as a modder, I have a few question.

1)Can we mod other governments to have this feature?
2)How customizable is the feature? Is it a single switch (eg, "Horde = yes") that trigger all of these, or are there multiple switches?
(By multiple switches I mean, say, colonizable_provinces = yes and no_diplomacy = yes).

1) Yes
2) nomad = yes & colonize_prov = yes

Maybe you should get the colonist bonus if you turn that province into a March? We'd finally find a use for that decision!

March is no longer a province decision but instead a Once Per Country building.

 

[Captain Gars]

Captain Gars:

How will civilized nations treat nomadic horde provinces?

Will you still be able to "occupy" them much like the current province system (and thus with a bit of work could "occupy" all the hordes lands?)

So, yes, you can occupy their territory with an army, but you can't annex it.

Yes you can occupy their lands just like normal, and you may have to do this sometimes to get enough of a warscore to make them accept your tribute offer.

My main concern here is the colonization process. I know it probably won't be easy to pull off in most cases, but I just have a bad feeling we're going to see nations like the Ottomans, England, and Castille fighting the hordes tooth and nail, simply because they have the capability to do so.

These countries can not send a colonist to horde lands without being a neighbour to them, so the problem should be minimal.

 

[ForzaA]

For the AI, undoutedly. But somehow I think DOWing Genoa of Day One to Capture their crimean holdings (or maybe annexing Georgia?) by 1401 will become the "Opening move" of any decent Christian powerplayer who doesnt have a horde border.

Why wouldnt it be? If you dont do it, you waste your colonists until 1480

To be fair, how is that different from taking the full infamy hit from the first province in the GH, and then continueing on with Holy War?
Or taking a moroccan province and colonising down Africa?
Not to mention the logistics might not be so easy Less so than taking civilized lands in a peace treaty anyway.

 

[ForzaA]

Oh I agree, its only normal that some gamey tactics exists and endure.

This one is a bit new, because itll presumably allow non-negligible BB-free expansion into eastern Europe at the expense of "free" colonists (that you couldnt spend otherwise) in the first century, but thats not a major problem. Especially if it requires a real military commitment. Pushing back a horde isnt that hard if its all you do, but a nation like Muscowy for instead, would be hard pressed to do it whilst battling Lithuania.

I'm assuming, for now, that the military commitment necessary will balance the lack of BB cost. It'll also most likely not be as easy to plant a colony in a horde province in the first place as it might be on a "normal" colonial province (with no natives)

 

[Captain Gars]

Let me get this straight, I have to crush their armies, drive them before me and hear the lamentation of their women just to get them to accept me paying them tribute?

If I have droped them to 0 troops and 100% occupied them, and I don't get WS for 'being at war' why would I offer them a peace ever? Why whouldn't I just keep them constantly occupied. Surelly having 1 army to squish rebels would be easier/cheaper than paying them tribute for 5 years, letting them build up and then having to do it all over again?

I never said you have to 100% occupy them. Just that you might need to rack up some warscore in order for the horde to accept your peace offer.

 

[Captain Gars]

So if i've got this right, then any country will be able to settle a colony in a Horde province, but also, any country with an army in that province (including the horde itself) will be able to click on the "Burn colony" button, yes?

Any neighbour country can do it in a nerighbour province. If country A and B both are at war with a horde and with each other, then they can burn each other's horde colonies.

 

[Captain Gars]

Does it cost for the horde to build and maintain troops?
After all, they get cash from pillaging, not from their khans.

And they were not standing armies like in the western Europe...

Mobilize?

Would be too much of a change to the system for an expansion like this.

It sounds like to me, that bordering the horde is an annoyance rather than a ticket to free expansion.

Yes, this is not supposed to be a free ticket to expansion. If anything it should slow down and make eastward expansion a bit harder.

 

[Captain Gars]

No one answered me: Are Timurids still thought as an ord?
I think they shoulden't and neither should the Mamaluks

Yes the Timurids is a horde.

 

[Birken]

Brilliant ideas.

Will the Horde start at war with every nation or just every nation that borders them and their vassals? A steepe plains horde at war with America would be a little wierd... not to mention how will you address the acumulation of war exhaustion by other countries if theyre always at war with the horde?

The horde is only at war with it's neighbors and being in war with a horde won't affect your war exhaustion. Getting pillaged by and fighting with the horde will still get your people tired though...

 

[Captain Gars]

...and China in general should not have the same tech speed as Ayutthaya or Korea, but in this game they do.

Well, to be fair, the same thing can be said about Europe where Italian city states in 1399 are on the same level as some godforsaken place like... Sweden? In a game as big as this, some generalizations must be made. I'm not saying the tech system can't be improved, but overall I think it's a rather good system.

 

[Captain Gars]

Isn't that compensated for by Italy's universities that it starts with?

You're missing my point. It wasn't about Italy in specific, it was just one example of having all european countries starting at the exact same tech level is perhaps a bit ahistoric, but it's a game and certain generalizations must be made. It's just not possible to give every single country a detailed and "historically correct" set-up.

You could differenciate the starting techs more. Add 10 more techs before the timeline starts, then you could have the Italians staring at tech 13 and Sweden at tech 6, or something of that sort.

Even more, I would nerf the "before it's time" penalty and the neigbour bonus. Small trading nations have it hard enough, they should at least be able to have a big tech advantage.

Both suggestions would however greatly unbalace the game.

 

[Captain Gars]

Wee should have other extra options while playing with hordes like to loot cities and wee would have advantages( like Tax for us,) and our enemies could have penalties ( Population growth could be the penaltie of the enemy.

Provinces bordering the hordes do get a negative modifier on tax and population growth.

 

[Darkrenown]

Wee should have other extra options while playing with hordes like to loot cities and wee would have advantages( like Tax for us,) and our enemies could have penalties ( Population growth could be the penaltie of the enemy.

Hordes have the city-looting event every time they take a province, just like tribes in HttT.