Divine Wind Advice-Germany

[BSRussell]

Hi all, first post in this forum.

I'm trying to play a campaign starting with a HRE state that takes the emperorship and eventually goes on to found Germany from the 1399 start date. Unfortunately none of the advice in the wiki appears to take into account the post Divine Wind HRE environment.

I've tried with Bavaria several times. Austria inevitably takes the emperor's spot. The "largest nation in HRE" bonus means that even if I max relations and form alliances/marriages where possible they vote Austria. Once they win I can't expand/vassilize because Austria will intervene in any war I start. One time I used the early Bavarian mission to vasalize the Palatine, but they're the only ones I can get to vote for me.

Any help? All I seem to read is "charm the electors into voting for you" but I don't see how that's possible. Without the emperor's spot I'm having no luck expanding.

 

[unmerged(487181)]

The bonus from being a large state in the HRE is easily bested by expanding your Sphere of Influence; the bonus to Diplomatic Skill more than outweighs the large state bonus, and the AI cannot properly utilize SOI for this purpose, so that's one area in which you will certainly have a decisive advantage. You can acquire Prestige in huge chunks by successfully forcing Personal Unions; inheritance of HRE states award auto-cores and, of course, territory which can help propel you to large state status.

So, essentially, the solution is to start by forcing Personal Unions with other states in the HRE. Your best targets are, of course, Elector states, as the first inheritance of an Elector state gives you Elector status, and until then, the Elector state will almost always vote for you. Beyond that, target cores needed for Germany. Brandenburg is probably the best example of such a target; since it starts in a Personal Union with Luxembourg that it will inevitably sever, it will, at some point, be bait for a royal marriage + throne claim, since when it breaks free from the union its ruler's heir will have a weak claim to the throne. Saxony and The Palatinate can similarly be forced into a union, though their dynasties, being more established, are harder to snatch up; you'll just have to watch and wait for opportunities. Bohemia is an option as well, but since it has no cores needed for Germany and starts as the Emperor, it's a tricky beast to capture.

Once you've got a few inheritances and a respectable SOI, you should pretty easily be able to bribe the remaining Electors into voting for you. Once you're Emperor, it's smooth sailing; look to force personal unions on the kingdoms holding provinces needed for Germany, and to annex the non-kingdoms. Missions can help in this regard, as you'll sometimes get a Conquest mission awarding a core on a province needed for Germany.

Are you making yourself go via the HRE for roleplay reasons? Historically, the HRE acted as a restraining force against German unification, and that legacy remains in the game. I've found it much easier to expand in the HRE by simply using the Teutonic Order's position as a non-HRE state, building a small power base in the outskirts of Russia or Poland (looking at places like Pskov, Riga, Mazovia), and then methodically invading the HRE states needed to form Germany from outside, removing provinces as you go in order to avoid the nasty Unlawful Imperial Territory event. You'll have to tangle with the Emperor, but Hungary is usually entirely too ready to make itself a meatshield for Imperial Austria or Bohemia. (You can use Hungary in such a fashion within the Empire, too.) Expansion within the Empire is usually pretty feasible provided you can get the Imperial crown, but if not, you might be better off working from outside.

 

[BSRussell]

Wow, thanks for the lengthy reply. I didn't realize the significance of personal unions in the HRE.

I didn't realize that the Teutonic Knights were eligible to create Germany (assumed they'd have monastic order-unique missions). It would certainly be challenging to play with their sliders. I might give it a try. It will certainly add diversity to my next few
campaigns (I intend to unify the HRE with Austria at some point and I was already worried that would feel redundant after just creating Germany).

What is it exactly that makes it easier to conquer HRE nations from the outside, aside from the fact that the Teutons have more of a military presence than any of the small HRE nations?

 

[n0thin]

Most countries don't have special missions, the Teutonic Order is one of them (before it forms Prussia). And most missions aren't government-dependent except for some missions concerning electors or royal marriages (monarchies) or trade leagues (merchant republics).

The Teutonic Order, however doesn't suffer from the infamy-penalty for uncored imperial territory (+0.25 per year/province, which really adds up), so they can just take all they need to form Germany and don't have their infamy exploding (removing those provinces from the HRE asap is suggested nevertheless to avoid stability hits).

Uniting the HRE and forming Germany are actually quite different although you may fight similar opponents. However, once you have done that (and reconquered all cores you gained as Germany) the game is pretty much over, as no other power should be able to challenge you on land and with your incredible economic you can easily create a huge fleet, too.

 

[unmerged(487181)]

The Teutons have no unique missions, which (at least in my most recent case; I own Scandinavia, European Russia, the northeastern quarter of Germany, Poland, Lithuania, and about half the Balkans by the late 1500s) led to a LOT of "Conquer X" or "Vassalize X" missions firing. The Conquer X ones are obviously really good if they fire on cores needed for Germany, and the Vassalize X ones are really nice for securing Elector states and (once you reform to Prussia) securing the Imperial crown.

There's the stronger military presence, which is crucial, too. The main tradeoff for being in the empire vs out of it is that in the empire, you can dodge the Imperial crown interfering against you if you have a legitimate CB on the target (there's also being able to get cores on non-German states via Personal Union, but for forming Germany this isn't immediately relevant since your targets will be German, which means you'll get cores on inheritance regardless), but outside the empire you don't take infamy hits from holding uncored territory. The Teutons overcome having to face the Empire with their strong military base and early expansion opportunities to get strong enough to face off against the Emperor; while the Teutons lack unique missions, it seems from my experience that Riga, Pskov and Mazovia are more likely to be selected for vassalization missions early.

 

[Ramidel]

The Teutons won't be getting any inheritances until the 1500s, in any case.

 

[brifbates]

Bavaria is actually a pretty decent choice for blobbing up and becoming emperor for life. Just follow your missions and vassalize any OPM/2pm types that oppose you (within reason of course, you don't want to get too much infamy). Use incorporate missions to annex them (dealing with 1-3 unlawful provinces isn't too difficult, just hire good infamy and prestige advisors-with 6 stars of both you will lose infamy and be at least neutral on prestige with 3 unlawful provinces no matter how bad your monarch is).

As long as you have a CB to start a war within the empire the emperor won't get involved in it unless they have guaranteed your target. Later you may have to deal with DoF issues as well. You can also just ally with the emperor and dow while you are also at war elsewhere as they can't dow you when allied in a seperate war (just don't call them as they will usually tell you to get stuffed).

TO-Prussia-Ger-HRE is kind of fun to do once but dealing with imperial interference repeatedly can get pretty old.

 

[unmerged(34598)]

Hi All,

Being Brandenburg, I'd like to know what is the best solution to integrate Hinterpommern (mission) and avoïd the Unlawful province events.

1st Let's talk, you listen
What about diplo-annex? Will it launch the unlawful event afterwards?

2nd Let's fight, you die
Hinterpommern has 3 provinces, generating a 15 bb if I choose to crunch the country in this one-shot-kill; but how many -0.25 points will I eventually get ?

3rd Let's peace, you lose
I saw that when sponsoring patriot rebels on occupied territories, then accepting peace, you just have to wait until the country breaks to get provinces. Fine, but here again what about the Unlawful?

Actually, for all the solutions of core, non-core, rebel, diplo ... is there any tiny chance to not have this event?

 

[JKNUBZ]

1: if you diploannex you will not get cores unless you have a mission specifically granting them

2: if you attack with your mission, annexing them will give you 9 bb (i believe) and you'll have two unlawful provinces

3: if you get their provinces to defect to you, you will still not get any cores unless a mission specifically grants them

I think the best solution is to take hinterpommern and vassalize them in one war. you can then integrate them by mission and get cores on both their provinces (if you have the beta patch--if not, you'll end up with one unlawful province, which is not too bad).

Alternately, you can just PU them, but generally as Brandenburg you wanna make use of that mission and spend your PUing time on other targets (imo).

 

[BeondTheGrave]

1st Let's talk, you listen
What about diplo-annex? Will it launch the unlawful event afterwards?

This depends. If you have Cores already, then you will keep them after you Diplo-Annex. Also, if you have a mission which pays out cores (check! not all do) again you will be rewarded with those cores. Otherwise you will have to wait the 50 years to core the provinces you take. Diplo-Annexing (as far as I am aware) does not itself give you cores. If your integrating a PU between 2 HRE states tho, that DOES give you cores, so its smart to force a PU, when available, on your target as opposed to the "traditional" Vassal-->Annex route that you do as say France.

2nd Let's fight, you die
Hinterpommern has 3 provinces, generating a 15 bb if I choose to crunch the country in this one-shot-kill; but how many -0.25 points will I eventually get ?

As far as the BB tally, youd get 15 BB right away for talking the prov, then +.75 per year for the next 50 years if you have NO CORES on the provs you take. This is manageable, but is a huge block to your further expansion. That 15 BB is gunna be really hard to burn off, and if you later want to take MORE prov you have to be very careful to not go over (or really even get to close) to your limit. Remember too that BB affects your diplomacy abroad. All nations get a negative relations modifier which is proportional to your BB, so in addition to getting an adviser to get rid of that BB, youd need the one that give you diplomatic skill, to preserve relations. But .75 BB/year is manageable. The problem is that 15 upfront, thats a lot.

3rd Let's peace, you lose
I saw that when sponsoring patriot rebels on occupied territories, then accepting peace, you just have to wait until the country breaks to get provinces. Fine, but here again what about the Unlawful?

IDK 100% if this gives you Cores or not, but im pretty sure it doesnt. The issue again is that Core, they are for many reasons the most important resources in this game, and here is one of those reasons.

Actually, for all the solutions of core, non-core, rebel, diplo ... is there any tiny chance to not have this event?

Ive never had this event not fire, but WHEN it fires is kinda random. It may fire right away for one prov, then wait 10 yrs before firing again for the other. But each time its a stab hit and the unlawful modifier on the prov. What I would instead recommend, if you havnt already vassalized Pomerania is to wait and try for a PU. They give the same benefits as a vassalization, plus in the HRE you get cores on inheritance/integration. If taking it is a must, vassalize it for the 4BB upfront, the annex it later when you can deal with the 3BB(i think, its 1 BB per prov you annex from a vassal right?) when your Infamy is lower. BUT REMEMBER: if your emperor, then you automatically get the unlawful modifier.

I can see how as Brandenburg POM is an exception case, but generally in the HRE it is far better to PU than to vassalize. If PUs arnt available, then Vassalization is better than annexing. Never outright annex something in the HRE unless it is absolutely critical. But thats just a general rule, each nation has its own needs.

 

[Serzis]

[...]So, essentially, the solution is to start by forcing Personal Unions with other states in the HRE. Your best targets are, of course, Elector states, as the first inheritance of an Elector state gives you Elector status, and until then, the Elector state will almost always vote for you.[...]

Just want to point out that -- as far as I've understood the relevant event-files -- there is no certainty that inheriting an elector will transfer the seat. Rather that process is governed by an event taking into consideration relations with the emperor, one's stability and luck. You may get the elector seat, but there is no certainty. If the elector is small, it is in my opinion, preferable to vassalage the small electors, thereby guaranteeing the vote. If you inherit an elector while being the emperor, however, you have zero chance of becoming an elector but may lose the crown as a consequence of one lesser vote.

 

[unmerged(204522)]

This depends. If you have Cores already, then you will keep them after you Diplo-Annex. Also, if you have a mission which pays out cores (check! not all do) again you will be rewarded with those cores. Otherwise you will have to wait the 50 years to core the provinces you take. Diplo-Annexing (as far as I am aware) does not itself give you cores. If your integrating a PU between 2 HRE states tho, that DOES give you cores, so its smart to force a PU, when available, on your target as opposed to the "traditional" Vassal-->Annex route that you do as say France.



As far as the BB tally, youd get 15 BB right away for talking the prov, then +.75 per year for the next 50 years if you have NO CORES on the provs you take. This is manageable, but is a huge block to your further expansion. That 15 BB is gunna be really hard to burn off, and if you later want to take MORE prov you have to be very careful to not go over (or really even get to close) to your limit. Remember too that BB affects your diplomacy abroad. All nations get a negative relations modifier which is proportional to your BB, so in addition to getting an adviser to get rid of that BB, youd need the one that give you diplomatic skill, to preserve relations. But .75 BB/year is manageable. The problem is that 15 upfront, thats a lot.



IDK 100% if this gives you Cores or not, but im pretty sure it doesnt. The issue again is that Core, they are for many reasons the most important resources in this game, and here is one of those reasons.



Ive never had this event not fire, but WHEN it fires is kinda random. It may fire right away for one prov, then wait 10 yrs before firing again for the other. But each time its a stab hit and the unlawful modifier on the prov. What I would instead recommend, if you havnt already vassalized Pomerania is to wait and try for a PU. They give the same benefits as a vassalization, plus in the HRE you get cores on inheritance/integration. If taking it is a must, vassalize it for the 4BB upfront, the annex it later when you can deal with the 3BB(i think, its 1 BB per prov you annex from a vassal right?) when your Infamy is lower. BUT REMEMBER: if your emperor, then you automatically get the unlawful modifier.

I can see how as Brandenburg POM is an exception case, but generally in the HRE it is far better to PU than to vassalize. If PUs arnt available, then Vassalization is better than annexing. Never outright annex something in the HRE unless it is absolutely critical. But thats just a general rule, each nation has its own needs.

correction: integrating a PU never gives you cores, you only get cores from inheritance.

 

[brifbates]

Just want to point out that -- as far as I've understood the relevant event-files -- there is no certainty that inheriting an elector will transfer the seat. Rather that process is governed by an event taking into consideration relations with the emperor, one's stability and luck. You may get the elector seat, but there is no certainty. If the elector is small, it is in my opinion, preferable to vassalage the small electors, thereby guaranteeing the vote. If you inherit an elector while being the emperor, however, you have zero chance of becoming an elector but may lose the crown as a consequence of one lesser vote.

If you inherit an elector you take their spot as an elector unless you are already an elector. If you annex an elector then a replacement is created using the normal rules.

 

[unmerged(271387)]

Is it possible to form germany as one of the bishoprics(cologne,bremen etc.)for extra challenge?I want to do it one day,tips?

 

[unmerged(25273)]

to become emperor vassalize the electors

Whenever you get one of the smaller electors opposing you in a war vassalize them. This basically secures their vote and works with all electors (Cologne, Mainz and Trier are bishopric and thus not open to royal marriages and personal union. But they can be your vassals). And it makes them your allies to defend the empire against foreign agression once you are emperor.
I played Burgundy and had a few wars with missions in which Cologne, Mainz, The Palatinate and Trier were allies to my opponents and I took the opportunity to vassalize them. It secured the Imperial Crown within some 20 years into the game. A smaller country would take longer but the pattern is clear. You get the badboy for vassalizing them but no formal request and consequential badboy and stability hits.

 

[brifbates]

Is it possible to form germany as one of the bishoprics(cologne,bremen etc.)for extra challenge?I want to do it one day,tips?

As long as they are a German culture it is possible, yes (since they can't form the HRE). As far as how to go about doing it I would have to go with the get a bully ally to win subjugation wars for you then diploannex plan. You have 400 years to get the cores needed and 2-3 unlawful provinces at a time is bearable. Assuming, of course, you don't want to switch government types.

 

[unmerged(271387)]

As long as they are a German culture it is possible, yes (since they can't form the HRE). As far as how to go about doing it I would have to go with the get a bully ally to win subjugation wars for you then diploannex plan. You have 400 years to get the cores needed and 2-3 unlawful provinces at a time is bearable. Assuming, of course, you don't want to switch government types.

Is guranteering/warning sufficient?I hate having useless allies that go into wars with huge powers and therefore get their posterior kicked :/

 

[brifbates]

Is guranteering/warning sufficient?I hate having useless allies that go into wars with huge powers and therefore get their posterior kicked :/

Maybe. The idea is to be war leader with a large nation in the war on your side to do the fighting since your OPM bishopric will have negligible military might. Later on this becomes less of an issue as you get big enough to field a noticeable force.

 

[n0thin]

Set sliders to free trade => trade hard => get rich (and tech leader) => overrun small opponents => be happy.
It's possible to do amazing things with nearly every country in the world, small nations in the HRE are actually quite easy. Sure, theocracies suck, but republics on the other hand have no PU's and diplovassalisation either, they just can get amazing dip leaders, giving them quite a lot of free cores. If you manage to get a good dip leader as a theocracy, you're more or less in the same situation as a republic.
Just build up your trade as fast as possible, stay diplomatically passive for the first years, and when you are trading in all relevant CoTs in Europe, begin with killing your first neighbors. If you get a claims on our rivals or a boundary dispute first, then take your cores of course.

 

[Gamera]

I have a nice method to form germany, though it doesn't involve emperorship.

I take the Hansa: while the Hansa leaders can't get elected (as it's a merchant republic), it has the absolute advantage to give you tons of Trade Casus belli against whom who would need to annex to form Germany.

First, you're main objective is to get as many possible trade casus belli by insulting the neeeded countries, they will leave your Trade League, hence giving you a casus belli that won't make the emperor to intervene in your war.
Second, you have to make it so Infamy isn't too much of a problem :10 needed cores, means 10 unlawful territories, or 125 infamy over 50 years in you prefer.... unless you quit the HRE. Here is the tricky part: you have to declare war to the needed country, keep them in a warring states for years, even decades if necessary, while avoiding the white peace event that would automatically fire if you don't fight enough. So your main goal is to occupy them...and let them rebel from time to time just so you can again besiege them and occupy them... Ideally, you try to be at war with every nation needed to form Germany: Mecklemburg, Magdeburg, Brandenburg, Laeunburg, Saxony, Brunswick, Anhalt, Thuringia and the Palatinate.

Once you're done, just...leave the HRE, so when you anenx them, you own't be impeded by the unlawful territory malus. Naturally, you can't annex them all at once (more than 60 infamy in one go), but if you're able to keep an unending warring state, then it's just a question of time (knowing you can also easily get a 9 diplomat leader as the Hansa, and will quickly found an Embassy). if efficient, you might eb able to get all the necessary territories by 1450.... then you just have to wait for them to core.

so to summarize:

1) use your trade league casus belli to dow the necessary countries
2) keep them in a constant warring state, while avoiding the white peace because of no figths
3) leave the HRE
4) ???
5) Enjoy

Main point of that strategy is that it gives you plenty of occasion to DoW your ennemies without the Emperor interfering.