Diversity: Overpowered?

[mocoman2001]

Another good example might be the United States. The parts which are most ethnicity diverse (California, New York, Chicago) are also the safest, most advanced, most stable and richest (once you factor out resource-extraction wealth.)

You are confusing correlation, with causation. I am a proud Californian, and i trumpet my state with pride. I am also lgbt, and support equal rights. But I don't think California and other prosperous states are wealthy, because they are tolerant. I think there tolerant because there wealthy. Prosperity = the luxury to invest more time to think learn and challenge ideas. We also happen to be the destination for mass immigration because of economical booms in the past. When you factor all that in, you create a breeding ground for liberalism, and tolerance.

 

[Caspoi]

Right, but then they're absurdly kind and peaceful, so they would never enslave, meaning they would have to be neutral...but then this wouldn't reflect their isolationism, which requires "xenophobia".

So I have to conclude that they simply could not exist in Stellaris as it stands (or the closest approximation would be fanatic pacifist spiritualist, leaving xenophobia/philia on neutral).

I hope that ethos's will be reworked somehow to allow such a species to be better reflected.

To be honest, I see that system becoming a lot more deep in the future anyway, to allow for races to have more character (more ethos choices and higher limits). I can see a major rework on the horizon once we've all played the game and provided feedback to Paradox.

Believe it or not it is possible to be open to other species without being a warmongerer. If you are an empire that trades with others and have a lot of immigration to and from then it would constitute as xenophilic and yet nowhere was it said that they went to war.

 

[mocoman2001]

I think you need to go back and research the gang activity in LA, Chicago and NYC. In the case of Chicago, its about as bad as it gets. I personally work as a firefighter in California and deal directly with Mexican gangs that are supported by the Mexican mafia - drug trafficking. This is no Shangi La here.

Also, the diverse population here is stratified by wealth. ie...minorities are mostly poor. The richest Hollywood executives are all from the same ethnic group - and almost exclusively male. The other big industry in California is military weapons production. I wouldn't exactly characterize this situation as "xenophilic".

You also might want to do some research

murders per 100,000 people in 2014

California

4.4

New York

3.1

and lets compare it to some states that are not known for there gang activity

Alabama

5.7

Alaska

5.6

Georgia

5.7

Louisiana

10.3

Mississippi

8.6

NATIONAL RATE

4.5

Seems to me California, a state renown for its gang activity is slightly bellow the national average for murders per capita.

In case you want a source, it comes right from the fbi https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-4

Also the problems in L.A. are rooted in racism and lack of tolerance, the same that goes for most cities. After world war 2, you had the gi bill, which aloud returning American veterans to get almost interest free loans for just about what ever they wanted. New house, new car, education, starting up a business, so on so forth, as well as many other services. The thing is, black people were not aloud to partake, and have bin at a major economical disadvantage since the freeing of slavery because of segregation.

The gi bill aloud non black people to move out of poorer location, and into new suburbs popping up every one thanks to housing bills for the veterans, while black people were more or less forced into poor run down locations. Once the black people were in the poor run down areas, the cities purposely under funded civil services for the forming black ghettos.

In closing, the gang problems in major cities are the direct results of racist polices by the "greatest" generation.

 

[Oscot]

Misleading statistics

Conflating "General safety / crime rate" with "One specific, cherry-picked crime rate, the murder rate", are we?

And you would have gotten away with it too, if not for those meddling 'folks who can read'.

 

[mocoman2001]

Also the increase cartel activities are the direct result of the failed war on drugs, and a national policy California has little power over. Just like the drug wars in northern Mexico are the result of the usa's war on drug policies, which are almost completely out of there control.

In this case its location, location, location. California happens to be right on the border, so we get to bear the blunt of failed national policies in the region, yet despite that, we manage to keep our murder per capita below the national average.

 

[mocoman2001]

Conflating "General safety / crime rate" with "One specific, cherry-picked crime rate, the murder rate", are we?

And you would have gotten away with it too, if not for those meddling 'folks who can read'.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-4

it is true we are above average on most things crime related, but we are well bellow the national rape average though!

 

[The_Meme_Man]

I feel like this thread is getting pretty off topic.

We are talking about xenophobia and xenophilia between space aliens, who are different species with different senses that perceive different perceptions, and who are on distinctly different levels of advancement, right?

 

[Spartanlemur]

Believe it or not it is possible to be open to other species without being a warmongerer. If you are an empire that trades with others and have a lot of immigration to and from then it would constitute as xenophilic and yet nowhere was it said that they went to war.

Did you quote the right post?

I can't see what relevance your comment has to my own. My point was that isolationist species are not necessarily interested in enslaving other races.

 

[mocoman2001]

I feel like this thread is getting pretty off topic.

We are talking about xenophobia and xenophilia between space aliens, who are different species with different senses that perceive different perceptions, and who are on distinctly different levels of advancement, right?

The only reference we have for how policy's in space would work are from earth examples. While one can theorize and debate how technology could change things, we are still left with the modern times as our only solid reference point.

And the reality is, these conversations and concepts can not be fully fleshed out in short forum post. These are topics experts spend there whole lives trying to comprehend, and personal biases make it almost impossible to stay purely subjective on.

 

[Atridij]

This is propaganda of the Nordic Igloo dwellers... Promoting diversity and harmony, while not taking in account that most of Balkanians are a bunch of sociopathic chauvinists whose first instinct is to smash something which is different from us.

 

[The_Meme_Man]

The only reference we have for how policy's in space would work are from earth examples. While one can theorize and debate how technology could change things, we are still left with the modern times as our only solid reference point.

And the reality is, these conversations and concepts can not be fully fleshed out in short forum post. These are topics experts spend there whole lives trying to comprehend, and personal biases make it almost impossible to stay purely subjective on.

I understand that, but isn't the topic in relation to a video game as well, in that we have to prioritize balance, "fun", and a degree of immersion over outright accuracy? I get the discussion, and typically historically more homogeneous civilizations have succeeded technologically and economically long term over heterogeneous civilizations. That really isn't fun when translated to gameplay. Xenophobia and Xenophilia need to be equally fun, interesting, and balanced, and while yeah we don't even know if life exists elsewhere in the universe (I bet it doesn't), but it still stands that the politics between species won't be as straightforward as politics within a species.




There is also the matter of keeping this thread open. Balance between ethos' is an important topic, and it need not be ceased just because modern earth politics comes into the equation. That is why my previous comment about comparing Xenophobia to Japan and Xenophilia to the British Empire because it is a purely historical comparison; I don't have to tread the edge of the forum rules by discussing modern politics.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

You also might want to do some research

murders per 100,000 people in 2014

California

4.4

This is entirely true and thank you for bringing it up.

In Europe at least, violent crimes in urban areas are often below those in rural areas, often significantly so. This is true even when we control for poverty and education rate, which are factors which rural areas tend to lag behind in. Urbanites (and those in areas dominated by their urban centres, like California or Nordrhein-Westfalen) seem to be less violent than rural people.

I am not aware of any research which cross-references this with ethnic diversity, but that tends also to be a factor which correlates strongly with urbanism.

Property crime can often be a different story, and naturally white-collar crime tends to occur where white-collar people live, which isn't in the countryside.

 

[Caspoi]

Did you quote the right post?

I can't see what relevance your comment has to my own. My point was that isolationist species are not necessarily interested in enslaving other races.

I don't Think so, but I may have missunderstood it, care to explain further what you meant?

This is propaganda of the Nordic Igloo dwellers... Promoting diversity and harmony, while not taking in account that most of Balkanians are a bunch of sociopathic chauvinists whose first instinct is to smash something which is different from us.

So you are saying that xenophobia is bad because it leads to civil war and people killing each other for marginal differences?

 

[Vasious]

And there I was thinking the thread was going to be a debate on if having lots of different Species was going to be a boon for the different ethoi, different planets, different racial trails to benefit from counter balanced by the fact that since Pops have an opinion on every policy, then every policy you will have will upset somebody and thus there will be lots of factions to manage

 

[The_Meme_Man]

And there I was thinking the thread was going to be a debate on if having lots of different Species was going to be a boon for the different ethoi, different planets, different racial trails to benefit from counter balanced by the fact that since Pops have an opinion on every policy, then every policy you will have will upset somebody and thus there will be lots of factions to manage

Pfff, no......that would make too much sense....

 

[BrokenSky]

Conflating "General safety / crime rate" with "One specific, cherry-picked crime rate, the murder rate", are we?

And you would have gotten away with it too, if not for those meddling 'folks who can read'.

I'm not saying you're wrong or right - I have no idea - but whether you are not, claims like this generally work better when you bring your own, more relevant, statistics to the table. (and cite source of ofc). So please do?

 

[Atridij]

So you are saying that xenophobia is bad because it leads to civil war and people killing each other for marginal differences?

No. It excludes playstyles most Balkanians are used to by penalizing the player while in exchange the playstyle of the Swedes are promoted. Damn those sneaky Igloo dwellers and their subtle attempts of social engineering.

 

[BrokenSky]

The only reference we have for how policy's in space would work are from earth examples. While one can theorize and debate how technology could change things, we are still left with the modern times as our only solid reference point.

And the reality is, these conversations and concepts can not be fully fleshed out in short forum post. These are topics experts spend there whole lives trying to comprehend, and personal biases make it almost impossible to stay purely subjective on.

Well we do have the vast reserves that are science fiction, for examples of conceivable scenarios (for aliens, not humans).

 

[Caspoi]

No. It excludes playstyles most Balkanians are used to by penalizing the player while in exchange the playstyle of the Swedes are promoted. Damn those sneaky Igloo dwellers and their subtle attempts of social engineering.

Yes, but I joked, refferring to the Balkans being people adopting a xenophile playstyle despite being xenophobes.

 

[BrokenSky]

This is propaganda of the Nordic Igloo dwellers... Promoting diversity and harmony, while not taking in account that most of Balkanians are a bunch of sociopathic chauvinists whose first instinct is to smash something which is different from us.

Nah that's normal for everyone. Try:
* Ignoring your homicidal urges
* Getting a stress ball
* Pretending to care about others
* Playing EUIV and gleefully converting them to the one true culture + religion, dispite the fact that going humanist and tolerating them is strictly better from a game-play perspective because the culture mechanics probably need a tune up.
* Playing fetch with a puppy
* Realize the puppy doesn't know how to play fetch
* Teaching the puppy to play fetch
* Have the puppy not understand and just keep bringing you random branches
* Give up and have a fun time collecting firewood with your puppy
(actually don't - they could get mouth splinters I think?)
* Teach your puppy only to fetch toy balls etc.
* Escape a very angry group of footballers.
* Playing CK2 and easily converting them to the true culture and faith because ck2 culture conversion definitely needs a tune up.
* Have an ice cream.