Ditching Dumb Allies - consider implementing Call to Arms mechanic

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Mackus

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Exactly what it says. I remember once playing Kaiserreich as Russia, got event when I get chance to seize Crimea, I did, and Ukraine declared war on me over this, dragging entire mitteleuropa in. When they were fighting internationalle - with 99% of German armies in the western front, I was on outskirts of Berlin before I faced serious resistance. If I was Germany I would've rage quitted.

What will prevent one province minor from screwing huge coalition with declaring war on military-industrial giant? Lets say I play Bhutan or New Zealand, who is in Allies, and decide to DoW USA in 1940, just for lolz, why shouldn't UK be allowed to say: "yeah, we are ditching those lunatics", causing aforementioned OPM to be kicked out of alliance to face the giant alone? Effectively refuse call to arms.
When nonleader declares war, alliance leader gets to decide whether join (if refuses aggressor is kicked out of alliance, but not out of previous wars), and then other members are asked. If alliance leader declares war, members are asked directly - in both cases there are option simply not to press "Call to Arms".

If you allow countries to be allied, but not necessarily join each other at war in every single case, you could have Japan in Axis (since they were not at war with Soviets until 1945), and you would not have America automatically Dow Germany just because they got attacked by Japan, since they joined Allies. Germany could have an actual reason to DoW USA, for example they want to attack american convoys that go to British Isles, otherwise they couldn't starve UK into submission.

But for Christ sake, please no automatic war.
Because really guys, if I play Tannu Tuva, and DoW Japan, China and USA in 1941 while Germans already are few provinces away from Moscow, Stalin would just meekly say: "whatever you say dear...." and go to war on four fronts!?
 

21oliver

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Ive made a few requests in regards to faction members as well, there clearly is some issues...

Examples;

The Soviets invade Persia. At the moment the Soviets are not at war with the Axis. Persia then joins the Axis. I dont think factions should be allowed to invite anyone/accept anyone that is at war with another party, unless the faction itself declares war on that nation or makes peace. A recent game i was the Soviets and conquered 3-4 nations that joined the Axis, and was fighting another, and it was like the Axis leaders simply didnt care, the didnt DOW me. Its an unrealistic setup.

Japan DOWs Siam. Japan is in the Axis. Then Siam joins the Axis. How the hell can a faction accept a member who is currently at war with another faction member???? Bad setup.

USA guarentees need to be redone. the Monroe doctrine was setup to block European expansion. If American nations fight amongst themselves it shouldnt (and didnt in real life) bring down american DOW's unless one nation gets crazy and starts conquering everyone.

And If the USA is going to guarentee these nations, another allied nation shouldnt be allowed to DOW them and have the USA do nothing...

I was Japan and after the NAP had attacked Vichy France, whom was still guarenteed by Germany, who did nothing because i was in the Axis. Then Vichy France joins the Axis, while at war against me, another Axis member...and then they embargo Germany, the Faction leader. ??????
 

Ikarases

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Because really guys, if I play Tannu Tuva, and DoW Japan, China and USA in 1941 while Germans already are few provinces away from Moscow, Stalin would just meekly say: "whatever you say dear...." and go to war on four fronts!?

Tuva cannot declare war. It's a puppet which gets annexed in 1944 :p

Aside from that, this is more of a mods' issue than HoI3's. The AI (nowadays) doesn't do random DoWs and if player decides to break the game by declaring war randomly, nothing can really prevent him from that and you're no longer playing a WWII themed game, rather a sandbox.
 

Mackus

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Tuva was not a puppet in Darkest Hour or Hoi2, and even if it was, how does it exactly defeats my point? Odd mechanic is still around.
Mussolini "broke the game" by DoWing Greece, thus screwing Germany by delaying Barbarossa. This is a relevant issue, Ikarases.
Hitler screwed entire Axis by DoWing USA, why shouldn't Hungary or Italy or Finland, which were not German puppets at the time, simply declined German call to arms? In fact some of them historically did. They might be negative consequences for refusing to honor alliance, but player and AI should be allowed to make the call.
 

Ikarases

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Tuva was not a puppet in Darkest Hour or Hoi2, and even if it was, how does it exactly defeats my point? Odd mechanic is still around.

It doesn't, I just thought you might be talking about HoI 3. Mistake on my part ;)

Mussolini "broke the game" by DoWing Greece, thus screwing Germany by delaying Barbarossa. This is a relevant issue, Ikarases.

No, Mussolini "broke the game" because his army failed to take Greece. And this wasn't a random DoW, Mussolini just wanted to revive the Roman Empire. That's a completely different issue than Tuva declaring war on the USA which the AI does not.

Hitler screwed entire Axis by DoWing USA, why shouldn't Hungary or Italy or Finland, which were not German puppets at the time, simply declined German call to arms? In fact some of them historically did. They might be negative consequences for refusing to honor alliance, but player and AI should be allowed to make the call.

Historically, that was a formal DoW, as he knew he would have to fight the USA in the future anyway. But his priority was to bring the Japan into the war against Soviets, but we know that didn't happen. One could also argue about how many Axis minors were actually touched by the USA, as they mostly ended up behind the Iron Curtain...



Okay, let's stop arguing about history now. I'll tell you how it currently works in HoI 3.

AI decides whether to refuse the call to arms based on scripts. So, by default, it accepts being called to arms at all times. This can be only prevented by writing script, as we can see in the WWI mod for HoI 3, where Austria-Hungary doesn't jump on Ottomans when Italy goes to war with them over Libya.

But script is a yes-no thing. It isn't a complicated event, where the AI gets to value its choices based on (in your case pretty complex) modifiers.

The bottomline, as I've stated earlier, is that AI doesn't do random DoW anymore. Human can broke the game in a thousand of other ways. What if Tuva controlled Mongolia and a chunk of China by the time it decided to go after Japan/Manchuria while Soviets would be still building IC and at peace? Can they afford this Tuva to side with Japan to attack their soft underbelly? And I bet human Tuva with a few adjustments could do just that.
 

Mackus

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Ah, so its a fixed thing. Hopefully in HoI4 AI will weight its options like it does in Eu4 and CK2, complete with +++ and --- for each "for" and "against"
 

Ikarases

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Ah, so its a fixed thing. Hopefully in HoI4 AI will weight its options like it does in Eu4 and CK2, complete with +++ and --- for each "for" and "against"

I forgot to say that refusing "call to arms" will slowly but surely destroy your relation with faction leader, as they keep asking about it every week. I didn't know if you were after the AI, so I explained both human and AI agression ;)

Anyway, I'd like to see that as well to replace some of the obsolete scripts.
 

Ikarases

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Kovax

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Buy a 1.0 vanilla copy and install it on your computer :p
That may or may not result in a DoW of ANY sort. In the initial release, it's purely random whether or not WWII even happens, and the odds of it happening between most of the historical participants while in their historical factions were virtually nil. I wouldn't even call it a "WWII game", although a war of some sort (or a series of small wars either between friendly neighbors or distant strangers) was rather likely.

There's a big difference between a country "weighing its options" and them choosing an action at random. The original scripts did not result in a rational choice, and made for a mildly amusing but extremely stupid game.
 

Dalwin

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Introducing CTA mechanics will fix nothing. The problems in HOI do not stem from your allies failing to declare war on your enemies. They stem from the dificulties in coordinating operations between multiple countries. This is not the Middle Ages where allies could go about doing their separate things as long as they were all doing something to hurt the common enemy.

Even in the other Paradox titles that use CTA you still have some nations that honor their commitment by declaring war but then don't leave their own borders. They just sit there and wait for the White Peace offer to come. This is also not a title with 100 or 400 years of on again off again wars and shifting alliances.

Your concern about the minors doing this to drag their whole coalition in is unfounded as well. Those little countries are not scripted to be that aggressive. Afghanistan is not going to DoW against SU, no matter who their allies are. The example cited by the OP is from a mod not from any vanilla version of the game.
 

Mannstien

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I guess we'll have to wait for the battle plan DD to find out if coalition coordination has been given some attention and I think the ability to be the faction coordinator for diplomacy would be good for majors.