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Commander666

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I have long been wondering if there might be tell-tale signs indicating that an install is problematic, or is it a game bug encountered, or is it actually "Works as Designed" (WAD)?

For example, currently my resource depot in Rangoon is shipping nothing (according to the convoy) even though there are resources accumulated there as per the convoy depot list and province map mouseover of that depot icon. The situation has been like that in this game for months of play time, but I do vaguely remember that earlier I could get some change in resources there when I changed convoy size. I no longer can - manually or on auto. 300 merchantmen refuse to transport anything from Rangoon.

I think it is a very unusual situation because all my other resource depots and all convoys are working just fine. Why would Rangoon behave like this?
 

Pang Bingxun

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I am not sure what happens in your situation, but to my understanding a proper set up of convoys would always ensure that all resources, with the limited exception of oil, are shipped home. Also i can confirm that it is possible to ship home all supplies. I did this with Königsberg and when my infra there finished it did not finish properly because no supplies were there, thus no building could be added to the province.
 

Commander666

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Yes, supplies I often ship home. All must be removed to get a depot totally empty in order to change depot to other province (by unloading unit there to introduce new supplies which will usually cause the original depot - if empty of supplies - to relocate. Also, I usually clean up all the many island depots after a Pacific campaign and use convoys to remove all supplies so the depot disappears from my list.

But I would also like to inform that I have always (in every version) had certain depots that never have all their resources removed. I thought it WAD and just learned to deal with those problematic depots by - importantly - not making the resource convoy oversize because that then results in less resources removed. Convoy size has to be optimum size for achieving smallest resource stock pile. at which point it "locks up" and won't get smaller.

Right off the top of my hat - in every version and every scenario I have played - the oil at Trinidad can never be zeroed. Are you saying you can do it? But that is different from what I was mentioning in Post 1. The oil at Trinidad (and other "problem depots" that can't be zeroed" do have normal activity with oil/resources going out as is confirmed by convoy info. That is different from this new experience of a depot with resources there but the convoy can not take anything.

I'll wait to here about your Trinidad oil depot before continuing on some other "strange things".
 
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Pang Bingxun

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Right off the top of my hat - in every version and every scenario I have played - the oil at Trinidad can never be zeroed.

I am saying that if i edit away the factories in Königsberg, than i have no troube shipping away all energy, all metal and all rares from that oversea territory. As i indicated before oil may be a limited exception. So it is oil that creates your worries.

Try setting up resource convoys for energy, metal and rares only. Do they work as intended? If set up manually the amount of resources shipped away per day should increase by 2 for every additional transport until resources in the depot donnot suffice. Soon a steady state is reached in which no energy, metal and rares are left in the depot.

Edit: Testing shows that mixed resource convoys ship away all energy, metal, reares and supplies, but only a limited amount of oil, the later depending on the amount of oil stockpiled. So maybe the best thing you can do is to simply not worry about oil. Since oil is per default part of resource convoys and supply convoys there is to be some kind of balance. Arguably this phenomenon is WAD.
 
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Mr_B0narpte

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One issue with convoying out resources is if your puppet is overseas and you don't have a directly controlled & owned province bordering it. If you use auto convoy, nothing will be taken from it (so the puppet just stockpiles endlessly, i.e. not capped at 1k per resource). If you set up a convoy via 'Return stockpile' and keep auto convoy on, then it takes no more then 7 of each resource daily, which typically leads to the puppet still stockpiling. The only solution ATM is manual convoys and placing more then what the game says is necessary to get those surplus resources back to you (''the master") that a land connected puppet would normally provide.
 

Commander666

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Yes, the precise circumstance you describe is quite normal. Its is not a bug. However, contrary to your info, the AI actually does set up resource convoys from puppets when on auto convoy provided player has check marked all 3 auto options including "auto create/destroy resource convoys". There can be some differences if puppet is an island nation or a land locked nation (with no connection to conqueror).

Convoys will transport resources from a land locked nation that has no friendly route thru other puppets or alliance members. This can be set up by auto or manually if one understands the somewhat confusing "alternate" ports used for convoy origin regarding the resources from a locked nation. However, this feature also does not work for every landlocked puppet so indicating a bug for some specific countries. Example, IIRC, having Manchukuo and Mengkukuo plus other China warlords as my German puppets, - all of them land locked and no friendly connection to Berlin, resource convoys could be set up on most (some worked, some didn't).

Back to Trinidad please, to determine if it is a bug. Are you able to zero the oil depot in Trinidad as conqueror regardless of whether owned or controlled by you, on auto or manual convoy?
 

Mr_B0narpte

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There can be some differences if puppet is an island nation or a land locked nation (with no connection to conqueror).
That's exactly what I was referring too, please read my first sentence.

The ideal solution would be for auto convoy to deal with this issue and ship out all surplus resources from puppets, as it already does for overseas stockpiles from provinces you own.
 

Mr_B0narpte

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Back to Trinidad please, to determine if it is a bug. Are you able to zero the oil depot in Trinidad as conqueror regardless of whether owned or controlled by you, on auto or manual convoy?
Set up manual convoy, apply 300 convoys and wait a couple of days & you'll see the resources being shipped. If the problem persists please post a save & what version you're using.
 

Commander666

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Yes, Trinidad ships resources. No problem getting oil shipped every day even if it is minimal convoy size. What was questioned was being "able to zero" the oil at Trinidad. But, as Pang, points out, that is indeed different problem.
 

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Yes, Trinidad ships resources. No problem getting oil shipped every day even if it is minimal convoy size. What was questioned was being "able to zero" the oil at Trinidad. But, as Pang, points out, that is indeed different problem.
Stockpiles can remain at negligible amounts, but normally it is less then 1 resource & the convoy stops. Not much of a worry.
 

Commander666

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That's exactly what I was referring too, please read my first sentence.

I did re-read it. Actually the first 2 sentences. Below:

One issue with convoying out resources is if your puppet is overseas and you don't have a directly controlled & owned province bordering it. If you use auto convoy, nothing will be taken from it....

This part is wrong. If you use auto convoys, auto will indeed set up convoy, and take out a certain amount. The rest of your paragraph (manual can remove more than the pre-determined auto amount) is correct.
 

Commander666

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As i indicated before oil may be a limited exception. So it is oil that creates your worries.

No, oil is not the worry. I have long known that shipping oil from depots is far less than other resources. Typically, after a Pacific campaign, I will send a big fleet low on oil to the many conquered islands that I want depots eliminated from a long depot list. The fleet quickly "sucks out" the oil that the convoys don't take out (except in small amounts).

Try setting up resource convoys for energy, metal and rares only. Do they work as intended?

This is the topic I am trying to address... and not the other issue Mr_BOnarpte has broached (how resource convoys to puppets act differently). To keep things simple, it is problems with resource convoys from depots that player controls or owns that I am discussing.

To be clear, the answer to your question is "Yes, resource convoys work normally EXCEPT some that don't zero energy/metal/rares ever; and now there is a new case of one energy/metal/rares convoy that is set up properly but refuses to ship anything (Rangoon).


If set up manually the amount of resources shipped away per day should increase by 2 for every additional transport until resources in the depot donnot suffice. Soon a steady state is reached in which no energy, metal and rares are left in the depot.
Yes, this is the situation that applies to most stockpiles. Increase convoy size > more resources ship daily > eventually depot zeros.
But I always experienced numerous other depots that do not react to an increase in merchantmen. They do not ship more daily as should be if convoy size increase. These depots absolutely refuse to zero ever (even though they have no oil). The best I can accomplish with them is to find the optimum convoy size to get the smallest stockpile left there. Increase convoy size and stockpile grows. Have convoy too small and stockpile grows.

Unfortunately, I can't think of examples right now except the most obvious one. As Germany annex UK. Now set up resource convoy. 1000 merchantmen can not get the depot (which has only energy and metal) to zero. In my present game the case is even more confining, in case somebody answers that is because England has so much energy/metal. Agreed!

So do this. Annex UK, liberate England and keep the Scotland area as German owned to greatly reduce the resources being created. Set up a resource convoy from Glasgow (where the depot usually is). 1000 convoys will not zero it. Now I wonder if that is because there is some oil there. OK, I will try sending over "hungry fleet" to suck out the oil. However, to clarify, increasing convoy size at Glasgow results stockpile reducing to a certain limit, then stops reducing further, and increasing convoys more then causes depot to begin increasing the resources stockpiled there. That behavior I classify as "problem depot".

THE OTHER PROBLEM is what I started discussion with and is Rangoon where that convoy ships nothing regardless of how attempted even though only energy/metal/rares is there. I think I will just call this a BUG and so end that discussion. It is the first and only time I have ever encountered this, and will classify it as "bug depot".

Edit: Testing shows that mixed resource convoys ship away all energy, metal, reares and supplies, but only a limited amount of oil, the later depending on the amount of oil stockpiled. So maybe the best thing you can do is to simply not worry about oil. Since oil is per default part of resource convoys and supply convoys there is to be some kind of balance. Arguably this phenomenon is WAD.

Agreed! But that does not address the many other depots that are only energy/metal/rares and will never zero. I need to check old file saves to find example of those (with no oil) but maybe easier I just play current game and suck all the oil out of Glasgow using fleet (because Scotland area does not produce oil). So I need to report back on that later.
 
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Pang Bingxun

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This is the topic I am trying to address... and not the other issue Mr_BOnarpte has broached (how resource convoys to puppets act differently). To keep things simple, it is problems with resource convoys from depots that player controls or owns that I am discussing.

I did some testing that confirms my suspicion that it is the puppet issue you are in fact refering to. You mentioned setting up England as a puppet and how this leads to small amount of resources remaining at the resource depot and that gave me an important clue.

I did edit away about 75% of Manchurias factories in order to decrease its resource consumption and thereby give it a meaningful but easy to understand excess of resources. I loaded the game up as Japan, deleted all convoys and then did simply wait. The energy stockpile in the depot in Tangshan increases. That of course is to be expected, because Tangshan produces energy. But the stockpile increases faster than the production. After a series of days also metal appears there. Now i create a resource convoy from Tangshan. It fails to ship home a small amount of resources.

In the next step i watch the daily change of rares Manchuria has in its capital. It is 12.19/0.9=13.54. I open negotiations and gift some rares to Manchuria to shorten the wait till Manchuria reaches 1000 rares. Guess what happens 2 days later and all days after that. Rares in the Tangshan depot are 13.54. Also metal and energy fit well into the picture the reader should have by now.

Puppets transfer the resources that they owe their master into a resource depot of the master after the convoys of the master have shipped it empty. So the resources by the puppets are shipped home one day later. The puzzle is solved.
 

Commander666

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I did some testing that confirms my suspicion that it is the puppet issue you are in fact refering to. You mentioned setting up England as a puppet and how this leads to small amount of resources remaining at the resource depot and that gave me an important clue.

Sorry Pang. You mis-read me completely. I did mention setting up England but that was only after discussing the resource depot of a British Isles controlled entirely by Germany, and that German owned depot never depleting (and that remaining being huge amounts).

Next I mentioned setting up England to reduce the size of remaining German owned area (the Scotland area only) to eliminate most of the very rich energy and meal producing provinces in England TO SO ELIMINATE EXCESS RESOURCES as a possible cause for the stockpile never zeroing. And that stockpile would then be at Glasgow - which is NOT a puppet of Germany but serves the remaining German owned provinces in northern British Isles.

I appreciate you trying to help; and here are the pertinent details. The German owned provinces are Aberdeen, Dunfermline, Glasgow and Edinburgh only. Rest of British Isles is England and the very northern "useless" provinces given to Portugal. The German area produces daily 34 energy, 13 metal and 1 rare. The stockpile reads:

A) Auto-convoy using 395 merchantmen manages to reach steady depot with always about 70 metal, 0 rares and 3214 energy remaining.

B) Manual convoy and throwing 700 merchantmen at the problem, I can fairly quickly get the energy down to 717 (which I discovered is the minimum size it will go, and then can be maintained at that by using 500 merchant men. If less, stockpiled energy increases again. If more merchantmen, energy also increases again. In short, 500 merchantmen is about the "optimum convoy size" for avhieving best possible minimum result with a permanent state of always about 20 metal, usually 0 rares, and 717 energy. That is a problem!

Please compare this to next door conquered Ireland (including the British part). The total island produces daily 16 energy, 1 rare, and 7 metal. But the resource convoy from there (let's use Belfast) is only 7 merchantmen (the minimum) and the resource depot is ALWAYS empty. This depot works perfectly!

Compared to the Glasgow "problem depot" if 7 merchantmen zero 16 daily energy at Belfast, then the Glasgow depot should zero with about 17 merchantmen removing the 34 energy accumulating there daily. But instead it takes hundreds (even 1000) merchantmen and they can only ever achieve a minimum depot stockpile of 717 energy always remaining. Does this make it clear?


The problem has nothing to do with puppets. Puppets - while all you say is right - is a completely different situation. I am discussing "problem depots" and "bug depots" which are owned (or controlled) by the conqueror - and not liberated puppets. Further, the problem depots are generally the same regardless what country player chooses to be. In short, there are numerous depots that player owns those provinces (after annexation) that never zero regardless of convoy size. But it does seem that quite a few could be explained away with the fact that they have oil there. In short, if oil is there, it must be preventing the energy and metal from totally removing. Usually the rares do fully zero.

My problem is never having some oil that won't remove from say a place like Alexandria or Aden because ships call in there all the time (and its good, I suppose, that extra oil is there). NOTE: Aden and Alex only mentioned as possible example, IIRC... have not yet checked back files. My problem is countless hours spent over a full game changing convoy sizes in a futile attempt to get all the energy, metal and rares out of Alexandria or Aden. Because - until that is done - I don't know if I can turn down convoy size. The whole quest is to find the minimum convoy size needed to zero depot of resources (agreed?), but problem depots befuddle that.
 
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Pang Bingxun

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But instead it takes hundreds (even 1000) merchantmen and they can only ever achieve a minimum depot stockpile of 717 energy always remaining. Does this make it clear?

Your puppet England is producing about 460 energy just in Sunderland alone and about 1000 energy in total. Substracting resource consumption one will find out that England has 717 energy and 20 metal in excess of need determined by effective ic. That effective ic is limited by (the lack of) rares. If more rares are available, than no metal will be in excess of need and less energy will be in excess of need. Your situation with England seems to fit perfectly into the pattern that Manchuria showed.

Please be aware that the resource consumption of your puppet England can vary, thus the amount of resources it transfers into your depot in Glasgow will vary, too. Your merchantmen are not what matters for that. What does the mouseover on the convoy state?

If you wish to discuss a situation where no puppets are involved please make sure that there are in fact no puppets involved. Then wait till a steady state is reached. What happens then? I expect that all energy, metal and rares are shipped home. Only some oil remains and maybe some supplies, depending on your choices.
 

Commander666

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That's fantastic detective work! I agree that it is the "Manchuria effect" applied to my depot at Glasgow. Yes, it fits perfectly. My own discovery - after I sent over CTF to suck out all the oil at Glasgow - was that next day 10.7 oil returned. Well, that is my trade to England.

OK that helps a lot knowing why the 700+ energy can't be removed. This will make it easier to find the minimum convoy size to keep things in check instead of wasting hundreds of merchantmen trying to do the impossible.


If you wish to discuss a situation where no puppets are involved please make sure that there are in fact no puppets involved.

Of course, but it is difficult given all the connections. For instance, now I am sure that the "bug convoy" at Rangoon is actually working perfectly, and the energy/metal/rares there that would not remove are actually India sending over its excess. What confuses it is that both England and India cry for oil/resources by showing a slight daily negative. But then master gives a minimal free trade (only to cover the exact negative amount) and they start sending back an "excess".

As regards the original topic - problem convoys - I realize it will need searching islands only because everywhere else there can be a puppet involved. As I liberated Cuba and Haiti I have few places left to test. And Trinidad won't work as the problem there is that it is oil (which hardly flows in AoD). :D

Finally, while I might have something in some old files, I don't care to search them. I am very happy that I now understand why Glasgow and Rangoon depots are behaving as it. THANKS! :)

Will start new thread for next "unusual happenings" in my game.
 

Commander666

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What does the mouseover on the convoy state?
Ha ha! The mouse over on Glasgow convoy shows convoy shipping slightly more than the depot amount that is always there. So daily convoy is filled with the very small amount coming from the German provinces in the north, and puppet England's contribution (which stays in depot as per the Manchuria effect. Mystery solved. Thanks again.
 

Pang Bingxun

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What confuses it is that both England and India cry for oil/resources by showing a slight daily negative. But then master gives a minimal free trade (only to cover the exact negative amount) and they start sending back an "excess".

That again is because of the order things are calculated. First resources are produced, then excess resources are moved to the Glasgow depot and then production and thus resource consumption occurs. So at the end of the day the resouces remaining are 1000 - consumption. If consumption is higher than the day before, than the resources remaining are slightly lower and the daily balance is slightly negative.

There is another related effect not depending on being a puppet: If at the end of the day a resource is zero and the next day is still zero, than the daily balance is also zero and thus not negative. But the daily balance being negative is required for proper trades being set up. So both the upper threshold of 1000 for puppets and the lower threshold of zero are a bit of a problem that may require the use of open negotiations to either overcome the problem or at least properly identify it.
 

Commander666

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Yes, it is complex, and thanks for explaining it. However, in my below, there is a big oversight.

I am very happy that I now understand why Glasgow and Rangoon depots are behaving as it.

This should not have included mentioning Rangoon. The problem with the Rangoon convoy is NOT understood. To remind, this depot has a steady amount of resources stockpiled and the convoy on it always states that it ships "nothing" every day. Possibly the puppet India is also involved, or this is a BUG? Let me begin with clearly showing all so it can be better investigated.

BELOW: The overall situation with puppet India and puppet Sinkiang north of there, and the new puppet of Guangxi Clique.

Race-10-Rangoon0.png







The Rangoon problem depot existed long before Guangxi Clique was liberated. Further, with giving Guangxi Clique some more provinces I created another problem convoy at Fuzhou that also ships nothing even though resources are accumulating there. I state this only to help the investigation because the Rangoon problem convoy does not result from liberating Guangxi Clique. Let's ignore Guangxi Clique for now because just presenting all the evidence for Rangoon and India is complicated enough.

Guangxi-1.png






Back to investigating the reason for the Rangoon convoy always shipping nothing. This situation has existed as long as I can remember. I did puppet India a very long time ago. They have built 100 divisions by now. No change in convoy size affects the fact that convoy always states "nothing".
Race-10-Rangoon1.png



BELOW: What India's resource situation is today. I do not have any trades with India.

Race-10-Rangoon2.png







BELOW: Here we see India's internal situation. She has 68 x 2 = 136 rares and 17 x 2 = 34 metal only.
Race-10-Rangoon3.png



So I will set up a trade to gift India exactly what she shows as a daily negative.

Race-10-Rangoon4.png






This is the depot in Rangoon a few hours before the gift to India is done - which will be done in the next hour.

Race-10-Rangoon5.png




The trade to India occurred yesterday. And now Rangoon registers some small changes in its stockpile size. No idea why?

Race-10-Rangoon6.png






And return to view India's final resource situation, it is this.

Race-10-Rangoon7.png




Now, I not sure if any of the above helps. If you want something, just ask. I sure would like to know why Rangoon ships nothing - especially since I now got another convoy mis-behaving the same way. Definitely the problem with the Fuzhou convoy also shipping nothing occurred immediately upon creating the German enclave at Fuzhou. But that is not to say that Guangxi Clique is causing the problem. But certainly - whatever the reason - I am quite sure that both Rangoon and Fuzhou convoys are same problem reason.
 

Pang Bingxun

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Let us list the fact first. India seems to have a stockpile of 14x2=34 metal, 68x2=136 rares and almost 1000 energy. It will tranfers no rares and no metal as both are way below 1000. In may transfers an amount of energy that is unknown. This amount can be reduced to zero by buying up almost 500 energy, that will suppress any resource transfers for a few days.

What is greatly unknown is what Guanxi Clique does. Its stockpiles does matter. If both the stockpiles of India, Guanxi Clique and just to be on the safe side also of your Sinkiang puppet north of India have their stockpiles way below 1000(and thus way below 1000/2=500 in open negotiations), than no resource transfer should occur.

What might greatly simply the situation is getting rid of your enclaves Fuzhou and Bao'an. Gift them to Guanxi Clique, that might as well be done in one deal where you reduce their stockpiles.

Now with all 3 puppet with stockpiles way beöow 1000 cancel all your convoys and let say 3 days pass during which no ic is put on supplies. What happens then? Where is the depot for your great X-enclave? Set up a resource convoys from there, give it ample merchant men and let at least a day pass. What happens then?