distance between borders

[unmerged(184583)]

There is something wonky about this mechanic. Currently playing as Brunei -> Malaya, I have sailed across the Indian ocean, colonized south Africa, and even parts of western Africa, bordering Mali and Portugal to westernize. The problem I am having is Mali, Morocco, and Swahili I all have borders with, I even get the "neighbors" +5 diplomatic bonus for being right next to all of them, but I am still receiving a roughly -135 diplomatic penalty with all of them for "distance between borders"... seriously? We have shared borders with cores, either that penalty needs to be renamed "distance between capitols" or just removed completely if you share borders. I guess its one of the weak points of this engine, it seems it is perma linked to your capitol, and does not dynamically change as your borders do.

Not to mention the only events that are seemingly firing for me are "royal marriage to mali", "royal marriage to swahili", when I would have to pump hundreds, maybe thousands of ducats into bribing them because of that penalty for distance between borders, despite being cored neighbors.

 

[atmafox]

Ooooh, it's more that it breaks with islands. It's contiguous, land-path-from-capital-to-province probably with an exception made for same-continent (such as to cover England). That would fit with other Clausewitz games.

Good luck,
-Atma

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

Ooooh, it's more that it breaks with islands. It's contiguous, land-path-from-capital-to-province probably with an exception made for same-continent (such as to cover England). That would fit with other Clausewitz games.

Good luck,
-Atma

While that's generally true, there are also some weird locations where you get no negative modifier for one diplomatic action, and a massive penalty for another. For example, if I have Tunisia annexed as Najd and want to vassalize Algiers, they can have no negative distance modifier for vassalization, but a massive one for the royal marriage so I still can't do it.

I think it was counting the distance to my west-African borders rather then the one right next to them for some reason.

 

[Xara]

"Vassalization" distance is based on any border connected to their land
"Marriage" is the distance between your capitals, less unbroken land connections

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

"Vassalization" distance is based on any border connected to their land
"Marriage" is the distance between your capitals, less unbroken land connections

In my above example I owned the entirity of the middle-east and most of Africa, all in one connected landmass.

 

[Xara]

But did you have a contiguous border from your capital to their border to their capital?

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

But did you have a contiguous border from your capital to their border to their capital?

Yes, but that's not how it works anyway. For example, I started up England in 1701 where I have exactly one proper border with Spain. In middle America, one seperate province. 0 modifier for distance.

 

[unmerged(184583)]

"Vassalization" distance is based on any border connected to their land
"Marriage" is the distance between your capitals, less unbroken land connections

Ah, so it is mostly just a FUBAR tooltip... thanks

 

[TheBloke]

"Vassalization" distance is based on any border connected to their land

"Any border" includes any border of your vassals. And those vassals do not need to be connected to your cored lands in any way.

Edit: far more information and full details are now in the next post. Keeping this just for emphasis on the bug :

NOTE: There is an annoying bug with vassal borders:

The Distant Borders modifier is not updated after you take (or remove) a vassal in the area. Even after fast forwarding many months. You need to save your game, then reload - this will cause the modifier to change to its correct value. This only seems to apply to taking new vassals; annexing + coring new land updates the modifier at end of month. This is annoying because if you forget it it seem like vassal borders aren't counting at all.

This bug could be used to advantage if you lost a vassal - you could still diplo-vassalise and RM based on the old distance calculations, so long as you haven't saved+reloaded. Pretty niche case though, only applies if you deliberately un-vassalise them, or if you're forced to Cancel Vassal in a peace. (And I haven't tested to confirm that the bug is still exhibited in case of Cancel Vassal.)

 

[TheBloke]

Rules for Distance between Borders calculations - DipVassalisation and RM

Done a bunch more tests (as has Schmoe), and actually it's quite a bit more complicated than first supposed (isn't it always?)

Within your own continent: For both vassalisation and RMs, capitals are irrelevant within your own continent, everything is based on borders. Continuous landmass is equally unimportant: any owned+cored province, or vassal province, extends the borders wherever it might be, even when it's completely isolated.

On different continents than your capital: Same as above for vassalisation. For RMs, distance is always calculated relative to the closest border that's contiguous to your capital. Local vassals, PUs, and even cored territories do not change this.

The modifier for vassalisation is always greater than the modifier for RM.

The formula is: RM_distance_modifier = floor(vas_distance_modifier / 5)

Edit history

Spoiler

Edit: It appears to be that it calculates an accurate Vassalisation number, based on intervening provinces, then divides by 5 and rounds down to get RM:

RM_distance_modifier = floor(vas_distance_modifier / 5)​

Thanks Schmoe for providing the formula!

Edit2: New finding; on different continents, the RM modifier does not take into account vassals/PUs. But vassalisation modifier still does.

Edit3:AdmRepublic and Schmoe proves that there's a difference in the 'other continent' mechanics, specifically for the RM distance calculation.

Rules for Distance between Borders calculations, on the same continent as your capital:

• The Vassalisation modifier is calculated based on province distance.
• Then the RM modifier is floor(vas_distance_modifier / 5)
• The modifiers are based purely on borders
  • capital location does not impact anything.
• Distances across a single sea-province do not count as 0; this is not considered 'bordering', unlike for other mechanics such as Fabricate Claim, and adding provinces to HRE.
  • Example: Calais to Kent (both bordering Straits of Dover sea province) counts as a DipVassalisation distance of 13 (RM would be 2.)
  • Such distances therefore cannot be reduced.
• The modifiers take into account your PUs and vassals
• The modifiers take into account their PUs and vassals
  • Bohemia is PU master of Hainult. Hainult borders me, therefore I have 0 distance to Bohemia.
  • Russia has vassal Ukraine. Ukraine has distances of RM: 24, Vas: 123, therefore Russia has the same despite being further away.
• The modifiers apply from any cored territory or vassal/PU, regardless of its location, and regardless of connection to any other province of yours.
  • it doesn't matter if there's no connection between the nearest province and any other province.
  • You can vassalise an OPM in the middle of nowhere, and all distances in the region will calculate from there if it's closest.
• The Distance modifiers do not update when vassal/PU borders change; you must save and reload.
  • Only tested with my vassals, but presume same applies to theirs as well.

Different rules for Distance between Borders calculations, on a different continent:

• The Vassalisation modifier is calculated as for same continent.
• The vassalisation modifier takes into account your and their PUs and vassals, as before.
• The RM modifier does not take into account overseas provinces (not on the capital continent) - whether they belong to yourself, or vassals.
  • For subject nations, their provinces do not count if they would be overseas for you, if they were your territory.
• The RM distance calculated is always from the nearest border on your home continent, whether that be your border, or a vassal's/PU's border.
• So if your capital is in Europe, it doesn't matter how many annexed/colonised cored provinces you have on the other continent, the RM modifier will be calculating from the closest border you have in Europe - whether that be your province, or a vassal/PU province - as long as it is contiguous with your capital.
  • It also seems to be limited such that, for RM modifier, it won't go through two successive vassals. So your border can be extended by one vassal neighbouring your cored contiguous-with-capital land, but not a second vassal that's bordering the first vassal but not you.

Screenshot examples (same continent only):

Spoiler

Points of note in below shots:

• Diplomatic Mapmode - my territory in green, vassals in blue-green, RMs in purple (but irrelevant)
• I marked my capital on one screenshot, but I tested moving it far away and confirmed it's irrelevant.
• All the land you can see of mine (green) is cored.
• I also have some vassals down in Italy, so in the case of Ukraine, Crimea, distances might be going down to them (at least in third shot where I removed all vassals in picture.) So the figures around western Europe are more useful for figuring out the details of the difference in RM/Vassalisation modifier, as we can be sure what borders they come from.
• Bohemia have PU-minor Hainult (out of picture), therefore they get 0 distances despite having no border with me/my vassals themselves.

Click for larger images.

Initial position



Vassalised Mazovia - changed distances now in green



Removed all my vassals in this area - all distances get much longer, as no longer using vassal borders.

Note that some vassals remain in Italy, not shown in picture, and Ukraine, Mazovia etc might be using those distances. You can just see a little patch of blue-green below Venice, which is vassal Ferrara.

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

I can always count on on Thebloke to follow up my short test with an indepth one xD

Anyway, that set all fits perfectly if the royal marriage score is a fifth of the vassalization score, rounded down.

 

[TheBloke]

I can always count on on Thebloke to follow up my short test with an indepth one xD

I can't remember the last I actually played the game..

Anyway, that set all fits perfectly if the royal marriage score is a fifth of the vassalization score, rounded down.

True, nice! Edited my post accordingly.

 

[AdmRepublic]

I diplovassalized Aztecs, and my european nation had -120 distance modifier right until I made direct contact with a neighboring province. So it seems for nations on another continent, it doesn't help at all to have overseas provinces close to them, it must be next to them.

 

[TheBloke]

I diplovassalized Aztecs, and my european nation had -120 distance modifier right until I made direct contact with a neighboring province. So it seems for nations on another continent, it doesn't help at all to have overseas provinces close to them, it must be next to them.

Did you save and reload? Remember the bug

Either that or you only looked at the RM modifier, because yes that does appear to be different for different continent (or different religion, maybe):

I just tested with Shawnee. Vassalisation distance modifier was 167 (which turns out to be relative not to home, but to Spain my PU-minor, and her new world colonies.) RM modifier was 89.

Then I DOW'd and force-vassalised Creek. Saved, reloaded, and the vassalisation distance modifier went to 0 with Shawnee, as expected for having a neighbouring vassal.

BUT.. the Royal Marriage modifier did not change from its 89. So RM modifiers are different for different-continent, or for different religion, I can't tell.

RM modifier doesn't take into account nearby/neighbouring vassal at all!

Edit: I also thought it used a different formula, but then I realised I had a PU-minor colonising the new world who would therefore be greatly reducing the Vassalisation modifier! So no reason to think the vas/5 is any different on a different continent.

I then checked Morocco. Morocco is neighbouring my PU-minor Spain. As expected, Vassalisation modifier was 0. But Royal Marriage modifier was 1, not taking into account the neighbouring PU.

So I can't tell if this is because they're different continent, or because they're different religion, as of course I can't find any Muslims in Europe.

My guess is it's different continent.

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

I diplovassalized Aztecs, and my european nation had -120 distance modifier right until I made direct contact with a neighboring province. So it seems for nations on another continent, it doesn't help at all to have overseas provinces close to them, it must be next to them.

Tried this with Portugal in 1444, on the Maya rather then the Aztecs for no particular reason. Gave myself exploration and enough colony range with console. With no colonies, the distance modifiers for Maya are 473/94. Then I started settling colonies along the south american coast to get a whole bunch of data (also to verify the RMDist = Floor(VassalDist/5) function).

Let's just say I didn't get particularly useful data for that, though very interesting nonetheless.

Spoiler

Name - VassalDist/RMDist connected colonies
No colonies - 473/94
Cape Verde - 473/94
Rio Grande - 421/94
Ceara - 400/94
Maranhao - 372/94
Grao Para - 328/94
Tucujulandia - 293/94
Cayenne - 283/94
Suriname - 269/94
Demerara - 252/94
Essequibo - 223/94
Cumana - 190/94
Caracas - 154/94
Maracaibo - 122/94
Magdalena - 108/94
Cartagena - 100/94
Antioquia - 100/94
Choco - 93/94
Panama - 73/94
Chorotega - 49/94
Mosquito - 0/94

The colonies did not need to finish for the vassal distance modifier to update, I didn't even have to wait for the next month for that. But the Royal Marriage distance modifier never changed, even after coring. Reloading the save file didn't help, even after exiting the game entirely.

This gave me a theory. What if the reason for this was that they had not discovered me yet? But nope, even after coring Mosquito, tagswitching to Maya to make sure they discovered me and had an attitude, it didn't update. So I waited a year, exited the game and reloaded the save. Still -94.

Perhaps then, they need to discover a route to my capital first, so lots of console action later I sailed to Lisbon as Maya. After that, still -94.

So I saw no other option then to move my capital to america and see if that changed anything. And yup, that instantly changed the modifier to 0.

edit:

So I can't tell if this is because they're different continent, or because they're different religion, as of course I can't find any Muslims in Europe.

My guess is it's different continent.

Indeed it is, since the same thing happens with Kongo, when they're catholic.

 

[TheBloke]

Ah good findings.

So it's impossible to get a Royal Marriage with a nation on a different continent to your capital? Even your own territories, be they cored colonies, or annexed + cored provinces, adjust the modifier not at all?

Weird.

Edit: I should say, it's impossible to ever change the different-continent RM modifier, besides moving capital? You can still get a RM if you can overcome that modifier, e.g. get more than +90 in positives, which isn't that unlikely I suppose.

Edit2: but hang on.. how is it that I have a Royal Marriage distance of only 1 to Morocco? I thought that was because it was using a distance of between 5 and 9, divided by 5 and floored = 1.

But a distance of 5-9 means it's damn close.. and indeed, I have a cored colony which is one province away. So it must be using that, without me moving my capital??

Different rules for New World versus Africa (and probably Asia)? Wouldn't be the first time - same happened with the -2 AE per province reduction from Release Vassal

This is what I'm talking about. This doesn't match your testing at all, right? So it must be different for New World. It's the same in that it's not counting that Spanish province (Spain are my PU-minor), but different in that the distance modifier is surely calculating from that province of mine just below Spains, and clearly not from my capital in mainland Europe..
(edit: confirmed it definitely doesn't matter about capital for Africa, like in Europe/same-continent. That's unique to New World..)

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

The weird thing is, I have definitely married Kongo before as Portugal without any of this weird stuff happening. But I'm not sure if that was before 1.4 or not.

edit: I would say it's looking at the distance across the Strait of Gibraltar there. If it was using Rio de Oro, it should be 0. In 1444, the distance is 12/2, but after I sold Ceuta to Morocco as Portugal and annexed Granada as Castile, the distance is 9/1.

 

[TheBloke]

The weird thing is, I have definitely married Kongo before as Portugal without any of this weird stuff happening. But I'm not sure if that was before 1.4 or not.

See my edit if you didn't already - Africa doesn't have the same rules as New World! Or it has one of the same rules (doesn't count vassals), but not the counts-from-capital rule.

And also.. yes it's definitely before 1.4

 

[TheBloke]

I've updated the first post with all the permutations, and differentiating New World other-continent from other-other-continent (Africa, Asia). I'm assuming Asia is the same as Africa. If anyone wants to test it...

Jeez.. only in EU4 would a modifier called "Distance between borders" be so ridiculously complicated as this

Still, we love it.. gives us something to test

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

See my edit if you didn't already - Africa doesn't have the same rules as New World! Or it has one of the same rules (doesn't count vassals), but not the counts-from-capital rule.

And also.. yes it's definitely before 1.4

Ohnoes, now everyone knows I'm secretly already playing the coming patch

But no, I'm pretty sure Africa is working exactly the same as America, that's what my Portugal test shows, and like I just edited your Morocco example fits exactly for the proper distance between Castile and Morocco across the strait of Gibraltar.

Now to find a way to quickly create a continuous landmass along the mediterranean coast to see if that changes it