Dissapointed

[Thaars]

I must start this post by saying that i love games made by paradox and especially EU2 and Hoi. I have been watching the progress of CK sinse late 2002 and have been waiting anxiously for the game that should make me take a week off from work..

But it didnt. There are so many things i feel is missing with CK that could or should have been implemented, things that i cant see why isnt there.

Lets start with the AI. I see that some in this forum claims it to be the smartest ai created by Paradox. I fail to see the difference of the CK ai and Hoi or EU2. It still does unexplainable errors in warfare. For example: When i attack Mecklenburg with the King of Norway, The tribe of Mecklenburg moves its entire army up in Akershus (my capitol) and starts a siege. Ofcourse, i manage to take the un-defended Mecklenburg allmost before they start the siege of Akershus because of the travel time, and their army is disbanded..

A liege prefer to get his own army slaughtered instead of using his vassals armies that has been called upon. And when a Vassal attacks a enemy, the armies of his liege waits until the enemy army is defeated before he takes the amry into the province, and then he gets the county..(Ok this is a smart move of the ai..)

Paradox says that Crusader Kings is all about creating a Dynasty. So why hasnt this been worked more upon? I am missing things like a family tree so that you can actually get a good overview of how your dynasty is related. And there is no way to make a "personal touch" to your family. Things like naming your own child is not there..I have two daughters named Beatrix. I really doubt they had so little imagination back then.

And take the court. Why isnt there a own court screen so we could get a better overview of the court? I am missing things like a simple history of the persons in the court, like: Torstein Yngling, your brother that declared war against you last year..
And what is up with all the persons that s just showing up, carrying your family name but with no parents and no siblings and so on? they are rarely useful to anything.

I miss a good overview of who your vassals and friends are. And how difficult is it to implement a function that allows you to make your own "shield"?

It looks to me that the game has a well built foundation, but then something must have happened when you was about to finish the game. it lacks obvious things and its more then i have mentioned but i feel that its time to stop the rant now.

I dont like to write this because i do love the games made by Paradox. Its the only games that never gets old on my shelf. But i really want an answer on the things i have listed.

Thank you..

 

[MegaPIMP]

Post this in the 1.02 patch thread

 

[FrEDa]

And take the court. Why isnt there a own court screen so we could get a better overview of the court? I am missing things like a simple history of the persons in the court, like: Torstein Yngling, your brother that declared war against you last year..

While it would be nice I dread what that sort of thing should do to the size of save-game files. Granted, it could be implemented to only work for a Human player and only for 2nd generation relations or something like that.. but then, people would probably complain about not being able to switch dynasty and have the info.

Would be nice to have some sort of "official" record of your exploits though.. like a "History of the xxx Dynasty".. but I guess there's a reason they removed the log from the savegame files.

"In the year of our Lord 1103, Tunisia was freed from the heathens.."
".. Rosa, wife of Roger xxxx, gave birth to Edmund xxxxx"
etc..

/F

 

[unmerged(485)]

The history is in a separate file because it and the save game files are so large that there is no sense in saving things (like a 100kb history file which doesn't change) for each save.

@Thaars - yes you are missing a lot but you are also missing a lot of fun if you are not playing the game. Certainly most of the points you raise are valid. While the snafu with the other developer may not mean much to we end consumers it certainly explains a lot. I look at it this way - even with its faults it is the only game of the period which I am interested in playing. Even after some patching everything we wish for will not be in the game. In the meantime I am spending many hours engrossed in the game and enjoying it.

 

[unmerged(12746)]

I must start this post by saying that i love games made by paradox and especially EU2 and Hoi. I have been watching the progress of CK sinse late 2002 and have been waiting anxiously for the game that should make me take a week off from work..

But it didnt. There are so many things i feel is missing with CK that could or should have been implemented, things that i cant see why isnt there.

Lets start with the AI. I see that some in this forum claims it to be the smartest ai created by Paradox. I fail to see the difference of the CK ai and Hoi or EU2. It still does unexplainable errors in warfare. For example: When i attack Mecklenburg with the King of Norway, The tribe of Mecklenburg moves its entire army up in Akershus (my capitol) and starts a siege. Ofcourse, i manage to take the un-defended Mecklenburg allmost before they start the siege of Akershus because of the travel time, and their army is disbanded..

A liege prefer to get his own army slaughtered instead of using his vassals armies that has been called upon. And when a Vassal attacks a enemy, the armies of his liege waits until the enemy army is defeated before he takes the amry into the province, and then he gets the county..(Ok this is a smart move of the ai..)

Paradox says that Crusader Kings is all about creating a Dynasty. So why hasnt this been worked more upon? I am missing things like a family tree so that you can actually get a good overview of how your dynasty is related. And there is no way to make a "personal touch" to your family. Things like naming your own child is not there..I have two daughters named Beatrix. I really doubt they had so little imagination back then.

And take the court. Why isnt there a own court screen so we could get a better overview of the court? I am missing things like a simple history of the persons in the court, like: Torstein Yngling, your brother that declared war against you last year..
And what is up with all the persons that s just showing up, carrying your family name but with no parents and no siblings and so on? they are rarely useful to anything.

I miss a good overview of who your vassals and friends are. And how difficult is it to implement a function that allows you to make your own "shield"?

It looks to me that the game has a well built foundation, but then something must have happened when you was about to finish the game. it lacks obvious things and its more then i have mentioned but i feel that its time to stop the rant now.

I dont like to write this because i do love the games made by Paradox. Its the only games that never gets old on my shelf. But i really want an answer on the things i have listed.

Thank you..

If you look through my post history you will see a similar sentiment. Just remember that in the end its your responsibility to be aware of what your buying, you referenced other games, and I agree, at release it dosent look like much as changed with some of the AI issues, and CTD's and nonesensical game balance.

But now, 4-5 games in it should be crystal clear as to what your getting, and given the consistant patching of the past, when your getting it, thus it still comes down to when you choose to buy. Say for instance HOI 1.06 came to market at release, posters would still find issues with it, but It would certainly have satisfied many of the complaints 1.01 had, I suspect the same trend will happen with CK. (See Sig)

 

[unmerged(27835)]

Actually I prefer patches and updates to the alternative. Agreed many games (if not most) could use a great deal more testing before beeing released, and CK is one of them. I don't know how things work in the game industry, but someone decide to release games and it don't seem like that someone is the developer (not soley anyway).

That beeing said, I love paradox games and this game in particular, even though I refrain from playing it until better stability is provided, which is my point. It WILL be provided, the history of paradox's support garantees that. That counts for a great deal, and I for one, is not afraid of bying a paradox game. It might gave faults, but they will correct it.
In my opinion, CK has the potential of become the greatest strategy/rp game ever. Let's hope paradox fulfulls that potential Happy gaming.

 

[J.J.E.]

If you look through my post history you will see a similar sentiment. Just remember that in the end its your responsibility to be aware of what your buying, you referenced other games, and I agree, at release it dosent look like much as changed with some of the AI issues, and CTD's and nonesensical game balance.

But now, 4-5 games in it should be crystal clear as to what your getting, and given the consistant patching of the past, when your getting it, thus it still comes down to when you choose to buy. Say for instance HOI 1.06 came to market at release, posters would still find issues with it, but It would certainly have satisfied many of the complaints 1.01 had, I suspect the same trend will happen with CK. (See Sig)

I agree. Although it is somewhat annoying that you have to wait for some months before it's a really good game, you know it will be sooner or later because it's made by Paradox=great patches.

The important thing is to keep on buying the games when they come out. First of all, you can help improve the game through constructive criticism. Secondly, Paradox got more money from HoI 1.00 when it was released than the they get from the now budget-title HoI which you can update to 1.06. Therefore it is important to buy the games "fresh", to provide more money for Paradox, and thereby indirectly paying for patches.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

I know this is gonna sound corny but...

Releasing the game and getting an entire forum's worth of feedback (from literally thousands and thousands of games played) actually speeds up the process of getting it to that 1.04/5/6 level when it begins to fulfill its potential. With only the limited number of betatesters, the time it would take to develop it that far would be much, much longer - probably prohibitively so - thus the game you would all like to see come out of the box but currently takes some number of patches to achieve would never end up being made at all...

Given the alternatives, I am personally quite happy to continue helping them test (and before any of you point out that I don't actually have to buy CK since I'm a mod & beta, I would point out that I still did so to help support the company and that I have bought all of the titles that I play).

 

[unmerged(12746)]

The important thing is to keep on buying the games when they come out. First of all, you can help improve the game through constructive criticism. Secondly, Paradox got more money from HoI 1.00 when it was released than the they get from the now budget-title HoI which you can update to 1.06. Therefore it is important to buy the games "fresh", to provide more money for Paradox, and thereby indirectly paying for patches.

I agree that its best to get PAradox your money rather then a publisher, but Im not convinced that the release issues, that seem to be popping up consistantly with each release (save game size, AI sleepiness, CTD's, various bugs that should be obvious *denmark at 1066*) should warrant buying at release.

Since we can buy direct now, I would rather wait for a few patches to make sure the game is in a more finished state. Buying direct still gives them the cash, but I get a more polished game, the only negative is I have to wait for games to get patched, and Paradox has to wait to get my money until they choose to patch the games, seems equitable.

 

[Thaars]

I feel i have to make it clear that i still enjoy games from Paradox, alltough not CK tonight cause it crashed three times in a row and i got kind of tired of it. I agree that after buying all games they have made except two thrones, i should know what i get. But i did actually expect that issues like i mentioned before was sorted out. And after Victoria that in my opinion was well polished at release + one patch, i expected that they would do that again with CK.

I am talking about features that in my opinion is obvious in a game like this. Things like a proper court window, a family tree and so on. When you make a game about family dynasties. you should include tools that make it easy to track your family.

But yeah its a good point that this game is the only game from this time period worth playing, and maybe i wouldnt have been too picky with it if it hadnt been for the games they made before. I would expect some evolvement, atleast from Paradox.

But i do hope you all are right, that they will patch up the game to be as brilliant as it deserves to be.

 

[Theodotus1]

I know this is gonna sound corny but...

Releasing the game and getting an entire forum's worth of feedback (from literally thousands and thousands of games played) actually speeds up the process of getting it to that 1.04/5/6 level when it begins to fulfill its potential. With only the limited number of betatesters, the time it would take to develop it that far would be much, much longer - probably prohibitively so - thus the game you would all like to see come out of the box but currently takes some number of patches to achieve would never end up being made at all...

Given the alternatives, I am personally quite happy to continue helping them test (and before any of you point out that I don't actually have to buy CK since I'm a mod & beta, I would point out that I still did so to help support the company and that I have bought all of the titles that I play).

I agree with this 100%.

Additionally, I have never seen any game company support their products the way Paradox does. Which is why I keep buying their games. (About the only games I buy anymore.) I know from experience that whatever may be wrong with a release, they'll keep working to fix it, apparently no matter how long it takes.

 

[GreenMarine]

Additionally, I have never seen any game company support their products the way Paradox does.

Epic Games.

 

[november]

I know this is gonna sound corny but...

Releasing the game and getting an entire forum's worth of feedback (from literally thousands and thousands of games played) actually speeds up the process of getting it to that 1.04/5/6 level when it begins to fulfill its potential. With only the limited number of betatesters, the time it would take to develop it that far would be much, much longer - probably prohibitively so - thus the game you would all like to see come out of the box but currently takes some number of patches to achieve would never end up being made at all...

Given the alternatives, I am personally quite happy to continue helping them test (and before any of you point out that I don't actually have to buy CK since I'm a mod & beta, I would point out that I still did so to help support the company and that I have bought all of the titles that I play).

Yes I agree. But this is the point that rubs some raw, “Paradox doesn’t deliver finished games, only betas.”

I’ve thought about this a lot. The unique thing about Paradox is the epic scope and breadth of their games, and unsurpassed replayablity. How can that be beta tested? 12 guys playing 20-30 GCs would just about scratch the surface. Either give up; strip features and scale back ambition, or ask users to help. My vote is clear.

 

[november]

While I’m on the subject of Paradox itself…

My suggestion is to finish their product line with two more epic games that cover the whole of history; something on the classical era (why not buy PAX Romana? It’s very Paradox-like anyway) and something on the ancient\Biblical period. Then rev those games—EU III, EU IV, etc.

Then add smaller scale games such as US Civil War and in the smaller games go for depth and complexity. Their game engine, which is well suited for the epic, does not fare well with intimate topics.

For what it's worth...

 

[Olaf the Unsure]

Paradox is one of the few developers whose games I will gladly buy the first day they hit the shelves (or, from now on, directly). While everyone wants a game to be in the best possible state upon release, the more important concern for me is that the games get made in the first place. No one but Paradox is even trying to make these types of games. If we want to see more of them - whether from Paradox or someone else - Paradox has to do well on these games. That's not corny, "fan boy" sentiment - it's my own pragmatic self-interest.

 

[unmerged(23737)]

I agree with this 100%.

Additionally, I have never seen any game company support their products the way Paradox does. Which is why I keep buying their games. (About the only games I buy anymore.) I know from experience that whatever may be wrong with a release, they'll keep working to fix it, apparently no matter how long it takes.

I could not have said it better!
Johann, all you betas and the others at Paradox keep up the good work!!!

 

[Belissarius]

I agree. Although it is somewhat annoying that you have to wait for some months before it's a really good game, you know it will be sooner or later because it's made by Paradox=great patches.

The important thing is to keep on buying the games when they come out. First of all, you can help improve the game through constructive criticism. Secondly, Paradox got more money from HoI 1.00 when it was released than the they get from the now budget-title HoI which you can update to 1.06. Therefore it is important to buy the games "fresh", to provide more money for Paradox, and thereby indirectly paying for patches.

So let me get this straight I should pay for a game I know isnt finished because paradox gets more money then if i wait for the game to be finished? Wouldnt this be a glaring red light to paradox that if they release now patch early that they are getting a reputation of releasing unfinished games and that means that people WONT buy their games at 1.00/1.01?

They continue to release unstable/unfinished games and their fan base is begining to realise that if they wait 6 months they can get the game in he bargin bin and it will be closer to a finished product. Paradox's industry leading support doesnt somehow negate their poor release policy.

I think that people have every right to wait 6 months and buy the game at bargin bin prices. Time and time again people say "DONT paradox doesnt get any money this way" well if paradox wants my money they should release a game at 1.03/1.04 patch levels not their usual 1.00/1.01 levels. I'm not going into detail of specifics as I dont have the game yet and so any points on game play would be heresay. But generaly speaking people dont like paradox's policy. Most people dont like buying something and waiting 6 or more months before its finished. While many people here dont mind because they want to play asap its not good business. Most people dont like to buy a product and then have to wait for things to work.

i dont feel that its important for me to make sure i buy the game right away on release or that I buy from paradox so paradox gets more money. I dont feel that I should shell out cash for an unfinished game and i dont feel that paradox deserves money for unfinished products or unstable products. What i feel is important is for paradox to make the game at the 1.03/1.04 levls on release. If paradox starts doing this then i'll start agree with your comments until then its wiser for a customer to wait before they buy. I wont get into all teh reasons why many people dont like to buy online using a creditcard. and currently its a moot point for people in north americal about buying the game right away or waiting because the game isnt out here yet on the retail level.

I dont begrudge you for buying the game right away or from paradox i just dont see why anyone should feel its important to give the company more money for testing an unfinished game.

 

[Duuk]

Psst. You don't have the game, so I'll enlighten you.

The game is amazingly stable for everything it does.

There are a handful of actual "bugs". (Papal CTD, Mercenary CTD, Undead Characters, AI Revoking Titles, AI sleeping with vassal armies).

Most of what we're griping for on the forum already are "Enhancements", ie: stuff that won't change the game mechanics but will change our enjoyment of it (ledger screen, naming kids, pop-ups for certain things).

As far as "completed game", I'd say that CK is the most done a Paradox game has ever been. 1.02 could fix the bugs and walk away and the game would be "great". But the enchancements that are likely to go in (like any Paradox game) will mean the game will go to 1.06 (My prediction ).

But you can buy it today and enjoy the hell out of it. I do, and many of us do. Try doing a world conquest while you wait for 1.02 where the AI will use its armies better. Still not easy to hold the kingdom together after the conquest (_if_ you manage to do it!). The advantage of this over EU2 is that the noble dynamics mean you'll need to keep watching your vassals as much as you watch the Muslims.

 

[Olaf the Unsure]

I dont begrudge you for buying the game right away or from paradox i just dont see why anyone should feel its important to give the company more money for testing an unfinished game.

I don't buy the game early to be a tester. I buy the game early to encourage Paradox to have the creativity and courage to continue to develop such unique games - games that aspire to be more than just another FPS or RTS clickfest. A game with a great concept, but a few correctable bugs, is far preferable to no game at all. Plus, I've never yet failed to enjoy a Paradox game - even during the "testing" phase.

 

[november]

So let me get this straight I should pay for a game I know isnt finished because paradox gets more money then if i wait for the game to be finished? Wouldnt this be a glaring red light to paradox that if they release now patch early that they are getting a reputation of releasing unfinished games and that means that people WONT buy their games at 1.00/1.01?

They continue to release unstable/unfinished games and their fan base is begining to realise that if they wait 6 months they can get the game in he bargin bin and it will be closer to a finished product. Paradox's industry leading support doesnt somehow negate their poor release policy.

I think that people have every right to wait 6 months and buy the game at bargin bin prices. Time and time again people say "DONT paradox doesnt get any money this way" well if paradox wants my money they should release a game at 1.03/1.04 patch levels not their usual 1.00/1.01 levels. I'm not going into detail of specifics as I dont have the game yet and so any points on game play would be heresay. But generaly speaking people dont like paradox's policy. Most people dont like buying something and waiting 6 or more months before its finished. While many people here dont mind because they want to play asap its not good business. Most people dont like to buy a product and then have to wait for things to work.

i dont feel that its important for me to make sure i buy the game right away on release or that I buy from paradox so paradox gets more money. I dont feel that I should shell out cash for an unfinished game and i dont feel that paradox deserves money for unfinished products or unstable products. What i feel is important is for paradox to make the game at the 1.03/1.04 levls on release. If paradox starts doing this then i'll start agree with your comments until then its wiser for a customer to wait before they buy. I wont get into all teh reasons why many people dont like to buy online using a creditcard. and currently its a moot point for people in north americal about buying the game right away or waiting because the game isnt out here yet on the retail level.

I dont begrudge you for buying the game right away or from paradox i just dont see why anyone should feel its important to give the company more money for testing an unfinished game.

I don’t see any way Paradox can beta test to the degree you demand, Belissarius. Which epic game producer does? Well, name them.

Their other option is to throttle down scope and features, say Lord of the Realms III. Is that you beau ideal?

Of course you can always play other games that don’t require patches. Such as Civ III. No wait, they’re still patching that.

How about ES games then, such as Age of Mythology? They’re published by Microsoft. Oops, sorry—they’re still patching that too (if you want to see REALLY pissed users, visit those forums).

Oh wait! You could always try Blizzard games—they’re known for being stable. Oh crap, they’re up to about patch 1000 with Warcraft III.

I got just the game for you! MOO 3. They’re done patching that one (of course the game is dead but …).

Geez. What to do?

You could avoid games and just play with the op system. No wait a minute, I have to download the Windows XP latest patch.