Dismantling the BBB?

[Tub]

I've been attempting a game as Burgundy these past few days, focusing on continental conquest, rather than forming the Netherlands and going colonial. However, I've always had a difficulty with France - my strategy has always been to conquer all of the Low Countries, then begin moving into France, conquer all of that, then move on and take down the HRE, etc.

In my most recent game, I started off really well - crushed Austria, and made it release Styria, leaving it completely neutered, and giving me effective free reign in the HRE. So, I moved my eye to the West. Took Calais, then declared war on France about ten years in. It had thirty thousand men to my forty thousand - and I got completely fucked. My first battle was my doomstack vs their doomstack, and somehow, even with a good leader, ten thousand more soldiers, equal tech, and no terrain bonuses, I lost pathetically. So, they made me release a few nations, and pay up some of my large cash reserves. This set me back a few years, but not too much. Then, I declared war on them again - and this time, it worked! Beat their doomstack with double their numbers, then used Aragon to occupy the south, with me occupying the north. However, at this point I ran into the problem of forcing France to release nations.

I only had enough warscore to force them to release Champagne and Berry - that's four provinces. So, I did that, and took a ton of cash too. Fast-forward twenty five years, they've completely recovered, annexed the rest of their vassals, and declare on me to claim a province. I, again, outnumber them in the first big battle - and they, again, completely rape me. At this point, I just rage-quit.

So, I have two questions. Firstly, why the hell do I keep losing to numerically inferior, and, as far as I can see, technologically inferior forces? And secondly, are there any techniques people have used to dismantle the BBB without being constantly at war for fifty years?

 

[Xara]

France has large morale boost a few NIs in, and is a lucky nation.

are their any techniques people have used to dismantle the BBB without being constantly at war for fifty years?

Ally with as many people as you can in the beginning and crush them utterly while they are at war with England.

 

[unmerged(109624)]

I just used this strategy a couple days ago as well.

First off I made friends with Castile and started improving relations from day one.
Turned land maintenance down to almost zero
Saved as much money as possible.
Just before you have enough mil points for mil tech 4 (tactics boost) I started training regular troops and mercenaries. Give yourself enough time for mercenaries to replenish in the pool.
Declare war on France (hopefully while they are still busy with England and their war exhaustion is high, aim for 1447-8.
Castile should join you but I can never get Savoy, Aragon, or Brittany to as well.
Hopefully your starting king is still alive as he is 3 shock, 3 fire which isn't bad for an early war.

Concentrate troops in the north, let them come to you, switch your troops to more defensive types just before you declare war. The battles should last pretty long so you can afford to train mercs and send them in from your border provinces as the war rages. The more mercs that die the less you have to pay them.

After that you have to keep hammering France in wars every 10 years or so (just after new tactics or troop type tech is available) Otherwise they will unite all the French minors and be virtually invincible.

Good luck.

 

[Puking Panda]

As Brandenburg I noticed a great way to fight France is in Auvergne if I remember correctly. Basically it's a province which most of the time gives massive defender bonusses. I declare war on France, put a numerically inferior force in just Auvergne to have the French attack it. Once the fight commences I try to march all my forces there and if all goes correctly then both their doomstack and mine will battle it out but mine will have a massive defensive advantage which usually guarantees victory. Another similiar way is when the French are allied to Savoy(which they loved doing in my game for some reason), split up your forces in the Alpian provinces and wait until the French attack one of your stacks, then send all your forces to that battle. Basically it leads to the same thing as with Auvergne but with some attrition.

Once you take out the French army out, try to take all their provinces then demand them to release Occitania which should pretty much completely cripple the French for the rest of the game in military power. Attack a couple years later agian, you should be able to faceroll their forces now, occupy all provinces and once agian force them to release as much of their provinces as possible. The France in my game just has 4 provinces left with most of their former provinces been taken over by much smaller French minors, they are completely harmless. Make sure to also get lots(LOAAADS) of allies just before you try your first war agianst France to make it alot easier. Castille is a great ally but I noticed that England usually goes in, sending small forces at a time which each get slaughtered by the doomstack.

Foul language removed - Seelmeister

 

[Xara]

Also, you have plenty of time to force them to release nations, but use the first war to make them cancel vassals. That will severely reduce their gains from tribute, and places a huge malus between the two nations for "abandoning" the vassal, so they won't reacquire them anytime soon. Make sure you guarantee, ally, or vassalize them yourself, to prevent Reconquest acquisition.

Which is actually not a bad strat to use AS france; DOW Brittany, get to 100%, then offer tribute of the cancellation of ALL your vassals. Then you can Reconquest them all in 5 years instead of taking decades to integrate and lose legitimacy. The risk being some of them might make more powerful alliances. But of course, you'll just have gone from 6 relations to 0, letting you ally and marry a bunch of other nations yourself.

 

[Tallyhoo]

When i played my Burgundy game i declared war on France immediatly even if i had no CB. They were bussy fighting England so it was no problém to get 100% war score and force them to release some nations. Then fabricate claim on one of theirs province and when white peace is over war them again and again and again. Remember that release nations is the key. This worked for me.

 

[gaius valerius]

Don't doomstack vs doomstack in the early game unless you have a clear advantage by Ideas. Lure 'm in, let 'm divide their strenght, strike hard, retreat, rinse and repeat.

 

[white army]

Yeah, France and the Ottomans are sometimes very unbeatable under militarized AI. Turn off lucky nations, if you didn't.

I remember that the last time I crushed France was recently - Sweden with integrated Russia that took the Americas and colonized the whole Siberia, else, I failed to do that with Austria that holded Hungary and Burgundy. I quited the game beacuse they crushed me and my imperial authority while I was taking the vassals' reform! Every 5 years they declared heresy casus beli (in addition they were Protestants!) and took Burgundy from me.

The trick is to fight not near mountains and high plains, have 10-20K stacks mercenaries more and defensive/forced march ideas. (take debts if your money runs out, it worth it)

Anyway, I will revenge in the next expansion as the Netherlands' (Burgundy, like you) colonial power is triumphent!

 

[unmerged(739896)]

Destroying France is perfectly feasible with decent allies (Castille and Austria), equivalent tech and some ideas (quality/offensive), but keep in mind that all large powers are there to balance out the other nations. Destroying France shouldnt come at the price of letting Spain conquer the world.

 

[Bibor]

The key are aragon and castile. I successfully ate up all france as Savoy. You just need to start immediately, as people said.

 

[unmerged(739896)]

I partially disagree on that, I managed to conquer large parts of France (including Paris) in a series of war as the Netherlands by pushing military ideas and scorching the land. It's totally feasible.

A note of warning on releasing vassals: they will get scared of your warmongering and form coalitions together with France, focus on conquering territory and feeding it to your own French vassal instead.

 

[DemBones]

I am getting close to the end of a Burgundy game focused on conquering France. Took me most of the game, but France is now just a handful of provinces in the South and I control everything else, including Brittany and some stuff I grabbed from the HRE. For me, the key was an alliance with Spain and Hungary. Spain was a loyal ally and I lucked into a PU with them mid-game, at which point they were just my big dumb attack dog. Hungary let me flank the Austrians when they inevitably attacked me. I also allied the independent nations in French territory to keep them alive for a little while. I'm not sure my tactics were the most advanced, I basically just attacked France whenever it was opportune and took everything I could, then waited for the AE to die down. I had to endure tons of Coalition wars against me, but I generally was able to come out on top. I actually picked Quantity as my first idea (had never used it before) to deal with my main problem in the early game, which was the disastrous losses I took and the slow manpower regain. I also took Defensive (everybody seemed to have the +25% morale and I didn't want to miss out) and Quality. With the right ideas you can field an enormous army and use mercenaries/loans to supplement at low cost. The other issue will be lack of admin points as coring French territory is crazy-expensive.

 

[FearTheAmish]

Start early kicking them in the teeth and DO NOT STOP!. Basically start move is Ally Castile and Austria, then immediately send one diplomat to fabricate claim on champagne. Do your normal Barrios take opening (gotta give HYW enough time to sap their MP). Once that is done let MP replenish and second you see their MP get low attack and take champagne and make them release a few vassals. Rinse and Repeat every chance you get, take 1 province release vassals/nations.

 

[unmerged(815621)]

As Brandenburg I noticed a great way to fight France is in Auvergne if I remember correctly.

I believe Dauphnie gives you higher probabilities for the -4 roll than Auvergne (either that or I was just unlucky)

The best thing to do is capture a couple of Guyenne's cores. Release Guyenne. Every war sit in Dauphnie until Frances manpower gets low, crush the rest. Carpet siege, and then release cores to Guyenne. After you run out of cores, feed them French lands. They become a nice ally.

 

[unmerged(804580)]

I only dismantled - 'conquered' - most of France only once in my games as Tuscany, so it's probably not the most representative but anyways..

I'd take one of the Guyenne and Champagne cored provinces in an early game if possible. There are many French minors dormant at the beginning of the game, but they're mostly just once-province minors. Taking those two will give you quite a lot of AE by itself, but will greatly diminish the AE as returning cores don't generate AEs. Champagne's provinces are particularly valuable, and just feeding and annexing them will make you border Ile-de-France directly. Useful if you ever go republic, since the capital can be easily occupied. If you're lucky you might even stackwipe them in the capital while they weren't prepared.

If France goes for Maine and Anjou, try to find a way to vassalize Provence and feed them those two back... And wait for the War of the Religions. This may require some luck as the reformation needs to hit especially strong in France, but sponsor Occitan patriots in the south. If they spawn any nation - Dauphine, Avignon, Toulouse or anyone else - they're yours to take.

Personally, I think taking Champagne and Guyenne as vassals and returning cores to them clockwork every five years would be practically the only way to get them. And even then it will require several wars before you could demand total annexation.

 

[mcmanusaur]

Usually I'm more concerned with crippling France than conquering it, so I like releasing Guyenne after the first peace deal, then Champagne/Normandy (or Burgundy if I'm playing as another nation and the inheritance event has fired) in the next one IIRC. After that, those three will generally ally up with Brittany and Provence if it still exists, and such alliance webs tend to be quite capable of holding back France proper for several decades.

 

[timujin]

I just used this strategy a couple days ago as well.

The more mercs that die the less you have to pay them.

Good luck.

that is actually not true, when they die they replenish and you pay extra gold for it instead of manpower.
unless you consolidate regiments, in which case you lose the initial investment in getting the mercs. so long story short, you don't want your mercs to die invain...