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I agree very much with most of Villain's points of contention. To me though, the game still has redeeming qualities and the hope that most of these contentious points will be addressed is enough to keep me interested.

Specific points he makes that I agree with would include:

1) Interface problems. The sliders...how? How could that have gone into a production game? Trying to lock them down results in them moving 100% of the time if the tab is near the left end of the slider. You cant fine tune them as one pixel is a ton of goods, supplies, research and production with any major power sized economy (but especially the US...). And there is no automatic setting to select the minimum values needed for each slider. That I think is a core problem with HoI (along with a broken AI), there doesnt seem to be much you can leave to the computer or automate for convenience's sake. But in practice there are a lot of things that I'd like to leave to the AI. Sliders meeting the minimums is one. I'd also like convoys to be automatically set up. Even though I love the research component of the game, that is something else the AI should be able to handle should you so choose.

2) Rulebook/Tutorial. Way too shallow for such a deep game. Not the worst I have seen, but they dont do the game justice. I have no experience with EU or EU2 and getting into HoI was a daunting task to say the least. Were it nor for these forums I would have returned the game.

3) RTS. Any game that requires as much pausing as HoI should be turn-based. Many RTS proponents seem to think that pausable real-time is superior to turn based but these people miss the point of turn based. Would chess be chess were it in real time? No, it would not.

4) Economy. Its hosed. The way world trade works is not good. The world market feature couple with various techs do not emphasize how important strategic resources were historicaly. The amount offered in deals should be all that exists on the world market. Countries at war with each other shouldnt be able to trade, and the AI should trade at above 2 to 1 when it needs to. Finally deals shouldnt start at 2 to 1. 1 to 1 deals or even 1 to 2, etc. should be available. Supply and demand and all of that.

5) AI. *Sigh*. Its bad, really bad. No need for details here I dont think as there are numerous threads detailing this all over these forums. Suffice to say that the AI is so poor that the historically impossible becomes routine under lots of circumstances and the game is not challenging after a fashion, even considering its almost vertical learning curve.

I am eagerly awaiting the next patch but I also have to say I am disheartened to know that it will be weeks before it arrives. I want to play and enjoy the game now and there are so many flaws that I havent been able to.

olaf
 

Drakken

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HOI will never be turn-based. You can put a cross on it. The best you can do is to pause the game when needed.

Drakken
 

kullenius

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Originally posted by Derek Pullem
I can imagine how the EU1 testers were feeling when they released the game now.
I remember how it felt :D , but still the interface let you play it, and my only major was about how you had to look over your boats all the time - fixed to EUII :).
 

unmerged(6105)

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Originally posted by trooper76
I dont understand why it has to been broken into hours, it seems way to small a time frame for a game of this scale. The only thing that really works on an hourly basis is aircraft missions, and they are so annoying I dont use them anyway.

all combat is affected mostly since there is night and day.
____________________________________________________

I can't understand the ones that want turn based, instead of this semi-real time. This is the best way to simulate war and things that happen.

If it had been turnbased you couldn't have troops that reinforce your line at the different times it takes to travel there terrain movement becomes messed up since we can't have it in hours...

the combat and how it works... in a turn based this system can't be worked then we just get results... You want it the "Third Reich " way? where just the attacker can lose their whole attacking army and the defender nothing...
 
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Originally posted by Drakken
HOI will never be turn-based. You can put a cross on it. The best you can do is to pause the game when needed.

Drakken

And I hope not too. As some mentioned, the beauty of real-time is that you don't have to sit and wait for the AI to go through its stages. This is also means you can fast forward through those "boring" parts of the game (not that there's many of them).

I can't understand why anyone would complain about the real-time system. The slowest speed is quite comfortable to play at (one setting even lower might not hurt and we need these speeds in MP) . You can pause whenever you want and give out orders. Not a problem. Sometimes it does feel like a turn-based game but with the painful waiting.
 

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Originally posted by BiB
Actually this so called "open public betatesting" at least to me doesn't add much. All these issues are pretty much known already. Can't say I've seen a single big issue being brought up that surprised me. There's just a big gap between knowing them and fixing them.

OK. Then why have a bug-forum? I dont think everyone is mentioning the flaws of HOI just to get a kick out of it but because they think they are HELPING you. Now you say they dont help at all. Kinda harsh but maybe true...
 

Maximilian I

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Originally posted by KungMarkatta
OK. Then why have a bug-forum? I dont think everyone is mentioning the flaws of HOI just to get a kick out of it but because they think they are HELPING you. Now you say they dont help at all. Kinda harsh but maybe true...

actually I think you REALLY do help us! on the one hand it is true, that most bugs are already known (and that is what BiB meant, imho), but otoh there are many great contributions, ideas and bug reports from the forum members. it`s not uncommon, that a good idea is directly linked into the beta forum! as Uglyduck said, constructive criticism is most appreciated! and as BiB said, it`s not an open beta, we`re in the "Game enhancement phase".
 

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Originally posted by Jkris
all combat is affected mostly since there is night and day.
____________________________________________________

I can't understand the ones that want turn based, instead of this semi-real time. This is the best way to simulate war and things that happen.

If it had been turnbased you couldn't have troops that reinforce your line at the different times it takes to travel there terrain movement becomes messed up since we can't have it in hours...

the combat and how it works... in a turn based this system can't be worked then we just get results... You want it the "Third Reich " way? where just the attacker can lose their whole attacking army and the defender nothing...

In your opinion, maybe. I counter that real-time might be great for teaching military officers, but sucks for a commercial game. It's really all about personal preference. Oh, and the 3rd Reich way, as you put it, or, as I call it, the standard for the past 30 years, isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

All that aside, I do think that turn-based and real-time each bring a host of pros and cons to the table from a strictly code point of view, if nothing else. The CCB would not exist in a turn-based game, for example, which might make it easier to code the AI. The whole concept of the CCB seems to fly in the face of all those saying that "grand strategy" means that we shouldn't be controlling battles on a tactical level. Well, what else would one call the HoI combat results system? OTOH, turn-based just can't give the same detailed you-are-there experience real-time can. I'd just argue that real-time is more suited to games of a tactical nature.

I'm not arguing for turn-based HoI. I put my two-cents in on that just before we were told it would be real-time and that nothing would change that.

I also don't understand where all this turn-based-means-long-periods-of-nothing-where-AI-grinds-through-turns is coming from. I am probably one of the few who picked up the computer version of 3rd Reich. Without the patch, yes, I had to wait an hour or more. With the patch, the computer takes less time than I do :)

Anyway, my response was generated more from a desire to correct what I saw were innaccuracies in your post than a desire to argue for a radical shift in HoI/HoI2 (if such a beast ever comes out).
 

cprofitt

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Originally posted by Derek Pullem
A good example is minor power war mongering. It was picked up in beta but it didn't have a high priority because not many people would want to play the minors. Well that blew out of the window as soon as the public got their hands on the game. Whereas people accepted that minor nations could win in EU2 and this was down to "good play" many did not accept the fact that Argentina could take over South America or that Italy could win a desert war. It seems to me that compared to EU2 the majority of posters want a much more deterministic game for HoI. This can be done but it wasn't (IMHO) the starting premise for the 1936 campaign. If you want a more deterministic game, start in 1939

Things are being changed - the public response from the forums is essential for this BUT there won't be a blow by blow account of each beta patch screw up or failed idea because it's not productive

I like the fact that some Minor powers can have a more important role in the war then was historical. I want a game that allows things to happen differently then it actually did... I don't want a game that would be better off as a History Channel documentary with no real input from me the player.

I hope that things like that are not eliminated - If changes come they should be OPTIONAL changes. I hope you can do that. Despite some flaws I have enjoyed this game more than any game I have played in 5 years.
 

Drakken

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The minor's role in HOI is to be an auxiliary to major powers, nothing more, nothing less. When a minor becomes a major in HOI, something is wrong.

Drakken
 

Derek Pullem

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Well, wait and see. But options don't normally get implemented (witness the great one province annexation debate in EU2).

On the other hand...if you lead an otherwise peaceful minor like Argentina on a never ending series of wars, the people might get a little fed up? Unless you had totally subverted the political system that is ;)
 

unmerged(12267)

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Re: Re: What was I expecting?

"How realistic is it to increase the industrial capacity of any nation?"

Very. Governments can play a major role in directly encouraging or creating industrial capacity and infrastructure through a variety of means -- subsidies, grants, tax incentives, public works projects (hydroelectric dams, roads, airports, railroads, bridges, pipelines, canals, rural electrification), nationalization of industries, more efficient economic/industrial regulation, centralized planning -- the HOI provision to increase IC and infrastructure is very sound, in concept. Perhaps in execution it could be better refined. For example, in free-market economies some component of development would be "random," reflecting the private nature and control of industry and infrastructure. In totalitarian, command economies, however, it is much more realistic for questions of IC and infrastructure to be mostly or completely a function of government decision-making and allocation. [/B]


Perhaps so...but then free market economies should also grow at about 6 times the pace that command economies can. It's a historical reality, but not much fun for the German player.
 

unmerged(9143)

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Re: Re: Re: What was I expecting?

Originally posted by QBeam
Perhaps so...but then free market economies should also grow at about 6 times the pace that command economies can. It's a historical reality, but not much fun for the German player.

Um, on the time scale of the game are you aware of the impressive industrial efforts made by Stalin's Soviet Union and Hitler's Germany? These leaps were made possible by certain factors, such as a relatively low level of industrialisation prior to the dictators taking power, but to ignore it seems somewhat ridiculous.

I will also add here that during war during the period of the game virtually *all* countries had what amounted to a 'command economy'. Yes, even the US.

Cheers,

Dr. Charm
 

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Originally posted by Drakken
The minor's role in HOI is to be an auxiliary to major powers, nothing more, nothing less. When a minor becomes a major in HOI, something is wrong.

Drakken

Unfortunately there's nothing wrong Drakken...the philosophy behind HOI was based on the design of EU...as long as this philosophy is accepted and used, then nothing will change it...
 

unmerged(2778)

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Originally posted by J P Falcon
Unfortunately there's nothing wrong Drakken...the philosophy behind HOI was based on the design of EU...as long as this philosophy is accepted and used, then nothing will change it...

Sure HoI is based on the EU-design. But that's pretty much it. HoI is an entirely different game. You can't say "Minors can become major powers in EU2, so nothing is stopping them from becoming majors in HoI."

Hey Half-Life is based upon the Quake2-engine, but is it the same game? No! Do they suffer from the same playbalanceproblems? No!