Discussion: Should the gateway tech be available earlier?

[devfrost44]

To add to this, the fact that it takes fleets YEARS to cross an empire means that two separate fleets can easily conquer big swathes of territory before the doom-stack rolls in.
And once it does you can easily, if you plan things carefully just constantly avoid fighting it by either hiding behind a strong enough defense stations (half fleet + defence station can easily beat doom-stacks at least before the late-game, but by then its a gatewayfest anyway) or having a fleet full of corvettes (which the doom stack can't catch up to). Meanwhile the other fleet is free to do whatever it wants. I have repeatedly beaten empires with large doom-stacks by employing that strategy.

Add gateways or any form of unrestricted quick travel and this all goes up in flames.

So while I agree with the OP to the extent that sometimes allies seem useless there have to be countermeasures against gateways (eg destroying them with a swift fleet of corvettes). Also the AI should learn how to use its fleet properly and realize that a defensive pact with someone 3+ years away isn't really worth it.

1. Even on mid game, when piracy pop out, it's so weak that I can just build 3 to 4 corvette from the nearest shipyard to deal with them
2. The problem with improving the A.I choice of allies is that which threat should it prioritize? Because it might ally someone opposite of the player direction because it can also has a threat in that region. Also, they can't always pick someone close by or adjacent due to the variety of ethic government in the galaxy. So should they prioritize having the player as their biggest threat? Or should the dev improve on their threat assessment by adding more considerations? I'm not a programmer but I think the latter is hard to do, especially if you want to do it without allowing the A.I to cheat (like vision to the fog of war, etc
3. I agree, if they do bring gateway travel as earlier tech, they should bring it with limitation. Cooldown is one way to do it or another way to do it is like I said, to make it like a one way mass relay.
4. As for doomstack, in the early to mid game, assuming your opponent upgrade their starbase, you will need the full force of your force limit to crash through it anyway. In fact this is true even for the AI. When they split their fleet, each of those fleet can be stopped easily by your starbase. But when they bring their two fleets together, then it can crash through my bastion. If you notice, fleet can win againts starbase whose fleet power are like 1 to 2 k above them. So, assuming equivalent star nations, both side would still need their doomstack to actually win the war. But to be honest, I don't think this is a problem. Bringing your fleet together to one single offensive is a strategic choice, and it's one not without a risk. You are leaving your other flank without a fleet and Paradox A.I always has the tendency to pounce at such opportunity. (Especially if you set their aggression to max) That's why, whatever solution to the mobility problem, in regard to allies, must be done in such a way that would retain the risk of the doomstack strategy. It's hard balancing act but hey, if it's easy, the dev would have done it already.

As for the highway idea, I'm still exploring that idea in my mind. The problem is, it alsohas the possibility of becoming way too useful, and therefore reducing the risk of doomstack strategy again. If implemented, it will have to have the right kind of limitation.

 

[Greenslade]

You could force-spawn every empire with a gateway near their capital system, building in to lore the notion that the gateways were built by a long-gone ancient empire with an interest in life-bearing worlds to explain the coincidence.

Gateway tech would essentially then open up the commerce and trading and diplomacy side of things, as well as the alliances, but you would still need to get to gateway building tech before you could start stringing all your systems and sectors together. You can't gateway-jump into a system that you're at war with anyway.

Getting rid of the "must be built outside of a gravity well" restriction would also be interesting I think.

 

[EvilTom]

Well there used to be 3x types of FTL travel before some pretty radical changes to make it Hyper-Lane only at the beginning of the game.

Now I think these changes were good, but is there an alternative to say... allowing non-hyperlane travel after a research, rather than just letting gateways allowed? Perhaps a slow version where ships travel between starts slowly without hyperlanes.

I'm sure endless space did something like this?

I'm not sure it's worth it instead of allowing gateways to happen earlier. One or the other needs to happen, but maybe to balance it maybe there needs to be extra costs for early gateways, whereas when everyone adopts them the cost goes down due to efficiencies, or a further technology to improve their performance or cost.

 

[Dargaron]

How 'bout a compromise?

-Early-game travel is vanilla: sublighting across each star system, then jumping at the edge.
-In the mid-game, you unlock Hyperspace Registers, which allow for an instantaneous jump up to two (three with an upgrade tech) hyperlanes away. You're still constrained by galactic geography (because you still jump via hyperlanes, you just don't have to sublight your way across the individual systems) and still have to cross every second/third system.
-In the late game, you get Jump Drives and Gateways, as usual.

Not sure I like the idea of pre-spawned gateways near home systems: at the least, they should be a game rule that you can turn off.

 

[Alspego]

As for the highway idea, I'm still exploring that idea in my mind. The problem is, it alsohas the possibility of becoming way too useful, and therefore reducing the risk of doomstack strategy again. If implemented, it will have to have the right kind of limitation.

I do not think, that it is a good idea to solve the doomstack issue with reduced mobility. In my opinion, the low speed of fleets can be extremely annoying in the end game, when the enemy (or end game crisis) is at the other side of the galaxy. Because of that, I generally like the idea of building gate-ways earlier or if hyperlane highways (and I do not think, that force disparity effect is enough).
There is already a mechanics against doomstacks implemented in other paradox titles: Front width and attrition. One possible solution would be a "friendly fire" mechanic: Ships of a fleet over a certain size, depending on the technology, would either choose to not participate in a battle or participate and risk to hit own ships.

 

[Adolf - Finite War]

Hyperlane Highways make me think of the old game Freelancer - basically a bunch of rings that create roads through the system - they would of course faciliate trade (value) and allow fleets to move much faster through the system from one hyperspace-lane entrance to the next so that pretty much only the hyperdrives cooldown matters in developed systems which would also make better hyperdrive techs by themselves more valuable.

The price would also be early to midgame affordable since they would probably only amount to a couple mining stations worth of material depending on the system.

Building them should be a system wide decision available at the starbase.

 

[exogeologist]

I think early gateways might shake things up too much, but what about artificial wormholes instead as the early option? You build a wormhole that links to 1 other system, that must be controlled by either you or a star empire with open borders. Means you can jump from one end of your empire to another, or go to your ally on the other side of the galaxy, but not from any point to any other.

I like the idea of artificial wormholes. It would be interesting if you can control the start point but not the end point. So it's a gamble where it opens and you'd want to create them only in well-fortified systems.

Would be nice to be able to collapse wormholes and destroy gateways, but I'd much rather have a mid-game tech to create/destroy hyperlanes. I have plenty of areas in my core empire where I could really use a shortcut between 2 systems. There'd need to be rules on adjacency but you could probably just set it up so that hyperlanes can't "cross" on the map and then let people draw whatever they want.

It'd be super fun to be able to create a hypelane into an enemy system... sort of like burrowing a tunnel under their walls and then BAM you pop up past their defenses with a big ol' fleet. Would definitely add more (fun) chaos to the mid and late games.

 

[Adolf - Finite War]

With more options to bypass defenses neutral space and starbase upgrades that disrupt things like hyperspace jumps and wormhole creation would be the natural answer I'd want and expect. So that it's easier to get close to the enemy in larger galaxies but you cannot necessarily jump into all his importants systems.

 

[Typee]

I do not think, that it is a good idea to solve the doomstack issue with reduced mobility. In my opinion, the low speed of fleets can be extremely annoying in the end game, when the enemy (or end game crisis) is at the other side of the galaxy. Because of that, I generally like the idea of building gate-ways earlier or if hyperlane highways (and I do not think, that force disparity effect is enough).
There is already a mechanics against doomstacks implemented in other paradox titles: Front width and attrition. One possible solution would be a "friendly fire" mechanic: Ships of a fleet over a certain size, depending on the technology, would either choose to not participate in a battle or participate and risk to hit own ships.

Yeah there are so many better ways to handle doomstacks than making everything slow. Like those you mentioned, or having a HOI4-style supply systems where starbases send supplies to your fleets. Remember how they mentioned that the "fleet homebase" system was supposed to help handle doomstacks. Well right now it does nothing at all except give you a default destination for the "return home" button. Fleet homebases could be linked to fleets effective range or something.

 

[Greenslade]

Yeah there are so many better ways to handle doomstacks than making everything slow. Like those you mentioned, or having a HOI4-style supply systems where starbases send supplies to your fleets. Remember how they mentioned that the "fleet homebase" system was supposed to help handle doomstacks. Well right now it does nothing at all except give you a default destination for the "return home" button. Fleet homebases could be linked to fleets effective range or something.

That would be a really good mechanic!

 

[StephenCoffey]

Yeah there are so many better ways to handle doomstacks than making everything slow. Like those you mentioned, or having a HOI4-style supply systems where starbases send supplies to your fleets. Remember how they mentioned that the "fleet homebase" system was supposed to help handle doomstacks. Well right now it does nothing at all except give you a default destination for the "return home" button. Fleet homebases could be linked to fleets effective range or something.

There'd need to be either a cost to switching home base or some limit to how many fleets can use one starbase as their home, but that could work.

 

[Number One]

Im of the opinion that gateways are a nuisance and im glad we can turn them off.

 

[Greenslade]

1 Fleet per starbase, with upgrade buildings later on, would seem good.

 

[01d55]

While I am always hype to get gateways as soon as possible, I have to admit that they solve trade collection somewhat completely and an entire mechanic probably shouldn't be obviated before the very late game.

 

[Greenslade]

While I am always hype to get gateways as soon as possible, I have to admit that they solve trade collection somewhat completely and an entire mechanic probably shouldn't be obviated before the very late game.

This is why making using existing gateways an early tech but keeping gateway building as a late tech would be good.

ETA: the "pre generated" systems could then be things with ruined starbases in them that you have to claim and upgrade

 

[Greenslade]

In fact, I'd like the Gateway to be part of the Starbase, something you need a fully upgraded starbase to have built. That means you'd be naturally building them at your "major" outposts, your sector capitals (hoping that these are implemented in some way) and bastions.