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PurpulaPhoenixum53

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It has been noted recently on the forums that the AI has been editing its templates to be closer to the META 40 combat width strategy. Now while AI improvement is great, I think is not the best idea. In a recent Neutral Greece ---> Byzantium game that I'm currently noting that these 40 combat width divisions are enormously good at defending which makes Breakthrough crucial, something which the AI is not the best at. This enviably has lead to the point where the game just straight up becomes Great War II: Electric Boogaloo, with neither side being able to actually make any gains and the game becoming boring and unfun. I'm now sitting in 1946 with the Front lines only have shifted a one or two tiles. Whenever the Allies attempt to make a push, they get met by insane level of German defense. Which causes the offensive to fail. Meanwhile the Soviets have failed to push any further, because for reasons that I don't understand (typical HOI4) its a free-for-all war with the Allies-Comintern-Axis all at war with each other ( the occurance of which needs to be reduced or delayed), which means in addition to the Eastern Front, the Soviets have worry about Allied incursions, naval invasions, and other fronts. The only thing that causes serious changes to the fronts is the entry of a bordering nation into the war against one of neighbors.

I'm asking the devs to potentially reconsider the improved AI. While its good and well intentioned, the level of difficulty might dissuade beginners and force players down select (armor based) strategies to dominate, rather than allowing both infantry and armor to have their bonuses and malueses. It also makes the late game, much more boring and not worth the effort.

Also, on a unrelated TIL that Paradox added generic Jet Models. They look nice.
 
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Technically, 40W is considered an offensive template which increases a division's offensive capabilities at the cost of defensiveness. Of-course, compared to the random combat-width divisions that the AI used to use (and still does for the most part) it's going to perform better, but I'm not sure if your theory that 40W is the cause of the slowdown is entirely accurate. For example, 12 vs 12 turning into 40 vs 40 favors the attacker not the defender.
 
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mpop

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Yes it did exist before but from patch 1.9.2, the AI got improved with building templates closer to 40 width division.

He has a point as it makes harder for new player, the default templates suddenly aren't effective anymore. But personally I like the improvement because building 40 width to faceroll the AI so they can't do anything to stop you wasn't fun either.
 

J1ffst3r

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I think a big part of this is that the AI seems to completely ignore tanks and when it does have them can't use them correctly. Without tanks to force a breakthrough it does indeed become a wwI slogfest.
 
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bitmode

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but from patch 1.9.2, the AI got improved with building templates closer to 40 width division.
The AI template files are there plain to see and they were not improved in 1.9.2 or in any patch in recent times. Here is the template definition in patch 1.5, just like it is in 1.9.2:
C-like:
            support = {
                engineer = 1
                anti_tank = 1
                recon = 1
                signal_company = 1
                logistics_company = 1
            }
           
            regiments = {
                infantry = 14
                artillery_brigade = 4
            }
And a Canadian AI in patch 1.5.4 beelining for it:
20200530143232_1.jpg

That's not to say the underlying issue of AI templates isn't interesting. But I think the insinuation that the developers should "reconsider" their "intentioned" change, when in fact there is very little change in terms of AI, is misplaced.

I'm asking the devs to potentially reconsider the improved AI. While its good and well intentioned, the level of difficulty might dissuade beginners and force players down select (armor based) strategies to dominate, rather than allowing both infantry and armor to have their bonuses and malueses. It also makes the late game, much more boring and not worth the effort.
Attacking with armor is not a "select strategy" but one of the staples of any WW2 game.

I think a big part of this is that the AI seems to completely ignore thanks and when it does have them can't use them correctly. Without tanks to force a breakthrough it does indeed become a wwI slogfest.
This. With unpierced tanks and air superiority, it does not matter much whether enemy infantry is 20 or 40 or any other width. If the order of battle looks like WW1 it will turn into WW1.
 
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Gort11

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I think a big part of this is that the AI seems to completely ignore tanks and when it does have them can't use them correctly. Without tanks to force a breakthrough it does indeed become a wwI slogfest.

I think they really shot themselves in the foot by making light tanks distinct from medium ones in the division designer. Switching from light to medium is an awkward transition for an experienced player, let alone an AI. They should just make two types of tank, heavy and standard, and then the medium ones can slide right into the existing light tank templates without any messing about.
 
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Iskulya

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Again, it really highlights the problems with the width/template system as it exists. 40 width divisions are magically better in combat than two twenty width divisions with the same composition. Plus the 40 width divisions are essentially paying half the cost for support companies like logistics and maintenance. It's very nonsensical and unbalanced.

With the Alex MP mod we played around with a variety of solutions that solved the problem. Firstly, we reduced the total possible number of battalions so that a 40 width division just isn't even possible anymore. Secondly, we changed terrain and tactics modifiers so that in practice the combat width is never going to be an even, predictable number so that there is no gaming the system and making an optimal template. Paradox could do this, but again, I think they can reform the mechanic in a more meaningful sense.

The mechanics need to be changed that destroy the 20 vs 40 width meta and encourage greater variability with division design, although one issue that we've spoken of here often on the forum is that every division had a large number of non combat troops which filled logistical and other rolls. This needs to be incorporated into the game, along with some kind of limitation on the total number of troops that can be fielded.

With the Alex MP mod we implemented a 1% attrition rate(or something like that) on all division's equipment each month. This achieves the intended purpose, but I think Paradox can find a better solution to it.

Edit: The Naval AI is still awful and basically unimproved. I never see any countries make anything newer than 1936 ships and Germany focuses on building screens.
 
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SophieX

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In my opinion the main-problem is not "improved-AI" or 40w template.

It's just the fixed front-width of 80w. A terrain- and weather based modifier for the 80w is needed.
 
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Harin

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In my opinion the main-problem is not "improved-AI" or 40w template.

It's just the fixed front-width of 80w. A terrain- and weather based modifier for the 80w is needed.

That and the division stats need adjustment to make it preferable and advantageous to have the same equipment and support elements real WW2 divisions had. A 10 infantry battalion division with no support or line artillery should not be able to stand up to a division with five support units and line artillery.

One way to help may be to give a little less org to infantry battalions and have support companies add org to a division instead of taking it away. If players and the AI had to build all the support elements a division had in WW2 then late game division spam might get greatly reduced.

At the end of the day, the real test of the division planner would be how its META (and near METAs) resembles actual WW2 divisions. Right now, there is little resemblance.
 
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DukofDeth

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The divisons should be built around brigades and regiments, which are built from the battalions. You would then build separate brigades/regiments of infantry, armor, motorized, mechanized, cavalry, artillery, and whatever other manner of troops one thinks they might need. Then you build the division by piecing in regiments/divisions, and thus pay the cost for attaching a single formation, rather than for each piece of that formation. There should be a limit to the numbers of regiments/brigades, too. WWI designs were along the lines of four brigades - the "box", while WWII were more triangular, so that there would be two forward and one reserve brigade. The Germans switched to two-regiment divisions due to their manpower shortages after their initial losses during Barbarossa. The US Army used three brigades of two battalions in their armor units as they felt that they'd attach extra battalions as situations required. US Army infantry were mostly three regiment divisions, though maybe the motorized units were only two [I can't recall].

Doctrine progress should help the AI to decide on its division composition, rather than a single meta for all of the AI. I have never bothered with 40W, and I don't intend on it. I'd prefer it if the habits of the multiplayer community were not forced upon everyone else. 40W is not the way to make the AI seem more challenging. If the AI were made to behave less aggressively, and actually make an effort at setting some goals, building up, and then going there, that would remove a lot of the grind and clutter, not to mention the way the AI clogs up any battlefront that opens up. The AI needs to delegate, so various the partners in an alliance look after the battles local to them. The way the AI behaves, rushing off to fight anywhere and everywhere , does not give me the impression that these are nations that were still stinging from a bloody conflict only twenty years before.

The AI is still drawing battle lines everywhere, and rushing off to fill those lines, which is why the AI always rushes to the highest conscription laws - it has to in order to produce the units to fill out all those battle lines. The AI should be able to have one country command the fronts closest to it, or if there are supposed to be certain "political concerns" putting someone else in charge, then that should happen. During the Battle of France, British units sent to the continent should be under French control, or have an assigned sector to work within, and to not step out of that sector.

Just to illustrate - war has broken out, Italy has jumped in, and Germany is invading everybody [Benelux, Denmark, Norway]. The British should be fighting in Benelux, and any French units sent there assigned to the British. The French man their Maginot line, Corsica and their southern defenses with Italy. The British would have their boundaries in Egypt and around Italian East Africa to guard, while the French have Tunisia, and maybe a small garrison in French East Africa - but that should be assigned to the British to maintain unity of purpose there.

What happens is that every hostile border gets a battle line drawn by every country that is involved. Sure, the Dutch and Belgians don't flood Africa as their units have enough to do at home, and probably are not weighted to do so, but the British and French should not be drawing battle lines atop one another - one line for the Allies, and one or the other assigned to command that front. This would keep the French from thinning their lines trying to fill positions the British already hold, and would keep low-infra areas like Norway from becoming a logistical nightmare as every landing prompts every member of the Allies to draw fronts and send in forces.

The AI should be able to calculate what it needs, and request forces from the rest of its allies, with any extra being put into some manner of theater reserve to be deployed as and where needed, but not stuck into the battle lines. As long as the AI is compelled by its coding to draw overlapping battle lines, and fill every province tile with at least one unit, and also not be able to take into consideration what the AI's allies already have in place, or are sending, then the game will continue to bog down into slogfests with the supply networks falling apart from the needs of so many units. As long as the AI is allowed to continue being so unrestrained in every theater where there is fighting, then the AI will continue to spam out divisions until they have no people left to conscript, burning themselves out by way of long WWI-style grinds.

Hopefully this will be addressed with the promised revision to the land combat system. Regardless, 40W is not the solution.
 
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DukofDeth

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Just to illustrate my point about multiple lines...
20200531171242_1.jpg

Each line is a separate country. Basically, the UK, Demnark, The Netherlands, Belgium, Free France, Norway, Mexico, Canada, Australia - each of those countries has drawn up independent plans, each will try to fill those battle lines, and thus each will clog the area. The Dutch and Belgians have 40W divisions, while the Italians are still using 20W or smaller. Frankly, all the experience put into building a 40W - something like 55 to 60 xp above what gets put into support gear - should be used to advance doctrine research, not truning divisions into small corps. And with this situation, there'd be less mess and more progress if only one nation was managing the fight - the AI should be able to use the expeditionary force system, too. This tells me it isn't
 
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SophieX

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That and the division stats need adjustment to make it preferable and advantageous to have the same equipment and support elements real WW2 divisions had. A 10 infantry battalion division with no support or line artillery should not be able to stand up to a division with five support units and line artillery.

One way to help may be to give a little less org to infantry battalions and have support companies add org to a division instead of taking it away. If players and the AI had to build all the support elements a division had in WW2 then late game division spam might get greatly reduced.

Fully agree, support-battalions, which also significantly increases the ORG of a division are a very good idea.

At the end of the day, the real test of the division planner would be how its META (and near METAs) resembles actual WW2 divisions. Right now, there is little resemblance.

In my opinion, it would be nice, if one cannot create any META at all ( by using a variable front-width ).
Deployment of troops was always performed considering the different terrain; and as a result the deployment-width varied.

Let the circumstances be responsible what the "META" in this phase, in that terrain and in this season is.
 
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Harin

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In my opinion, it would be nice, if one cannot create any META at all ( by using a variable front-width ).

Eliminating the all purpose META would be the ultimate goal. Right now, there are to few parts of the whole, so clever players discover METAs.

Another problem with current METAs are they are to EASY to build. A true META should be a very difficult thing to achieve and it should have consequences in other areas when built. What did the player give up to have this META, now? In the current game, the player has only gain for going META. There is no sacrifice. Indeed, the sacrifice is not to go META.
 
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