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TheMeInTeam

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That's a matter of opinion.

I'm afraid not. Byzantium disappearing with nary a war is objectively not historical, and yet you're suggesting to make that the most commonplace outcome. If your argument were based on something other than history, you might have a case. Since you based your argument on history while making a suggestion that would put a near absolute block on having a historical outcome, you lose.

In the meantime the entire South East Asia with very rich and quite impactful 1444-1821 history has not a single byte of flavour in the game; no interesting Buddhism, one of few major global religions, nothing for Myanmar ethnic minorities nor Taungu, creator of greatest Indochinese empire ever; nothing for Ayyuthaia, one of few countrkes succesfully resisting West ever; nothing for military power of Dai Viet, nothing for Lan Xang, nothing dpfor declining Khmer and Angkor, nothing for Malaccan trade center, nothing for Majapahit and Sunda, nothing for Aceh fighting with Portugal for 300 years nor for Brunei, nothing for Philippines, nothing representing unique Mandala governments and thalassocracies, nothing about spread of Islam, no war elephants, no Wat Arun and great temples, no interactions with West, no Chinese pirates and crazy Malay-Chinese-European naval wars, no Oceanian kingdoms of Tonga and Hawaii, no Aborigines, no Maori, no feudal kingdoms of Madagascar and horrible Zimbabwe; not a single event nor decision for dozens of interesting countries historically very active in this period.

But sure, everything for Byzantium! This is main theme of this game: not colonization, exploration and globalization but rise of Roman Empire in alternate history - and God forbid it ever to be nerfed. This is Byzantium Universalis.

PS
China is still retarded in eu4 and didn't have own dlc, who cares about 1/4 of global economy and population from this period.

+1. I don't like the BYZ nerfs because the reasoning for them is petty, baseless, or based on compensating for a broken mechanic that's supposedly fixed. If anything, the fact that the devs bothered changing them yet again just showcases further the undue attention it receives.
 

RobRoy3

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Yes. It makes no sense to put the game with the historical representation of the world circa 1444.
If your proposal jibed with history, it might make sense. If Paradox's kludgy vassal mechanics accurately represented a vast array of historical situations, it might make sense.


When Constantinople was sacked after the Fourth Crusade, the splinter states had other names until one of them successfully reunited a notable portion of land (including Constantinople itself).
Names given by later historians aren't necessarily relevant. All the successor states asserted they were the legitimate heirs of the Empire and their respective leaders all claimed the purple. Whether they managed to get anyone to buy into it or even get a credible coronation did, indeed, depend on battlefield success.


Nothing about the start has changed. Nothing at all. They did not lose owned land or have their owned land altered in any way. In fact, the AI now actually gets slightly more prestige, due to having less uncontested core territory.
Simply not true. Cores make it easier to expand. Having lost those cores makes it more problematic for BYZ to expand into those areas. To assert that it has no impact on BYZ is just counter-factual. Ask any BYZ player if they would prefer to have the cores or if they don't care, if you have trouble believing this rather obvious statement.

What HAS changed is Byz popping back up for a visit decades AFTER being roflstomped by the Ottomans. This doesn't just happened sometimes, it happens most of the time according to others and in my experience and it is rather shocking when I play to NOT see a Byz re-emergency at some point if I'm not all over the area myself. This is the aspect that's being targeted - resurgent Byzantines well after being conquered - their actual start and the sack of Constantinople are NOT impacted by the removal of unowned cores or the denial of free cores in favor of claims should the empire re-establish itself.
I've only rarely seen situations such as the ones that plague your games. When I did, it's due to those nations being defeated or otherwise collapsing; situations where you'd expect revolts and splintering. This was a positive feature, not a flaw. But now, unlike most of the world, this area gets a pass on nationalist revolts, because ... reasons ...?

If it's simply the title of Emperor, or the color purple, that offends, putting GRE cores, or some other tag, would better address that. Removing the cores, however, makes those provinces less susceptible to revolts, which is simply a bad idea, particularly when they've been adding ahistorical cores and tags to other areas of the map. To me, it's less about this particular nerf to BYZ (though I despise the idea of country-specific nerfs where they is no compelling game-play or historical reason), and more about the fact that we're kludging together a lame response to a non-problem because someone perceives that these nations need help dealing with nationalist rebels? Or someone hates Purple? If there is a problem with the rebel mechanics, that needs to be addressed. If there is a weakness, specific to these nations, that should be addressed (or maybe they should be reversing some of the ill-conceived country-specific nerfs they applied to countries like the Ottomans in previous patches). But the current core nerf, while admittedly slight, is an overall negative for the game, with zero historical justification and precious little game-play justification.

If you want to nerf BYZ based on historical considerations, there's lots that can be done and you've got load better ways to do it, some of which have been suggested in this thread. Was that the goal? Or you can buff the Ottomans, if that's the goal? But kludgy, inconsistent tweaks to selected cores, based on nothing, is just lame. It's not an effective nerf. It's not an effective buff. It undermines the rebel system while covering up what may, indeed, be a weakness of it.
 

TheMeInTeam

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If it's simply the title of Emperor, or the color purple, that offends, putting GRE cores, or some other tag, would better address that. Removing the cores, however, makes those provinces less susceptible to revolts

AFAIK, this isn't true. Unrest is checked on culture. Nationalist rebels create cores when the occupy or enforce, so you will simply see nations like Epirus or Achea pop up more often en masse' as a result of Greek nationalists. It's the same reason you get giant Yaroslavs out of nowhere post annexation if Muscovy eats a bad war.
 

BFTeixeira

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If your proposal jibed with history, it might make sense. If Paradox's kludgy vassal mechanics accurately represented a vast array of historical situations, it might make sense.
With the improve mechanic of the LD, you can represent a more similar relation that existed between Biz and Ottos. Biz regularly tried to break loose from the Ottoman lordship, so Pdx could put Biz as a vassal of the Ottos and a 100 LD. Sooner or later this would trigger an Independence War, where the Ottos superiority should prevail.
Sure, this still isn't a perfect a representation, but in my opinion is a more true scenario than placing Byz as an Independent State.
 

BFTeixeira

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I'm afraid not. Byzantium disappearing with nary a war is objectively not historical, and yet you're suggesting to make that the most commonplace outcome. If your argument were based on something other than history, you might have a case. Since you based your argument on history while making a suggestion that would put a near absolute block on having a historical outcome, you lose.
The game starts in 1444, not 1453. I'm not suggesting anything about what happens after 11-11-1444. That would be railroading.
 

TheMeInTeam

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The game starts in 1444, not 1453. I'm not suggesting anything about what happens after 11-11-1444. That would be railroading.

If you make BYZ a vassal at 1444, they will virtually always exist past 1453. They will also virtually never fight a war against the Ottomans.

Whatever the BYZ/Otto relation was precisely at 1444, it was not what the *game* defines as a vassal, because the Ottomans clearly did not have that kind of influence to the point where they could simply take remaining territory with nary a shot fired or sword crossed. You can't refute that reality, and that is why your vassal assertion is wrong beyond the point of mere opinion. What you want would require a new type of relation the game doesn't have.
 

Wizzington

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For next patch, we're replacing the Byzantine purple map color with the most hideous shade of green we can find.
 

RobRoy3

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AFAIK, this isn't true. Unrest is checked on culture. Nationalist rebels create cores when the occupy or enforce, so you will simply see nations like Epirus or Achea pop up more often en masse' as a result of Greek nationalists. It's the same reason you get giant Yaroslavs out of nowhere post annexation if Muscovy eats a bad war.
Well, I won't swear either. But I thought the order and cycle of rebel types depended heavily on whether there were existing tags in those areas. For example, you'd very rarely see things like HAN, WES, PAR or AQU nationalist rebels, before, but that was only after virtually every other potential rebel type (including other eligible nationalists) had gone through the cycle in those regions.


For next patch, we're replacing the Byzantine purple map color with the most hideous shade of green we can find.
At least that'll placate the people who seem to hate purple.
 

yerm

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Simply not true. Cores make it easier to expand. Having lost those cores makes it more problematic for BYZ to expand into those areas. To assert that it has no impact on BYZ is just counter-factual. Ask any BYZ player if they would prefer to have the cores or if they don't care, if you have trouble believing this rather obvious statement.

This is not the start. This is latter expansion. Byzantine starts MIGHT involve attempting to snipe Venice before moving on Ottomans, and in this case a loss of Venetian vassal cores does hurt. Otherwise, going into the Balkans and conquering or making vassals and/or feeding them with Ragusa & Bosnia & Serbia is obviously not impacted. Trapping the Ottomans in Anatolia, or better yet Chios, is not changed. Taking the Greek cores and driving them back to Anatolia is not changed. The cores come into question AFTER they've already been beaten at least once and the human playing the Byzantines is now in expansion mode - not the start.

I've only rarely seen situations such as the ones that plague your games. When I did, it's due to those nations being defeated or otherwise collapsing; situations where you'd expect revolts and splintering. This was a positive feature, not a flaw. But now, unlike most of the world, this area gets a pass on nationalist revolts, because ... reasons ...?

Because they want these revolts to be something other than Byzantine nationalists trying to restore the Roman Empire by taking up arms... in Corfu. The change is intended to make uprisings in places outside these mainland territories in European Greece something NOT Byzantine. Byzantines are welcome to revolt... in the heart of Greece or Thrace.

If it's simply the title of Emperor, or the color purple, that offends, putting GRE cores, or some other tag, would better address that. Removing the cores, however, makes those provinces less susceptible to revolts, which is simply a bad idea, particularly when they've been adding ahistorical cores and tags to other areas of the map. To me, it's less about this particular nerf to BYZ (though I despise the idea of country-specific nerfs where they is no compelling game-play or historical reason), and more about the fact that we're kludging together a lame response to a non-problem because someone perceives that these nations need help dealing with nationalist rebels? Or someone hates Purple? If there is a problem with the rebel mechanics, that needs to be addressed. If there is a weakness, specific to these nations, that should be addressed (or maybe they should be reversing some of the ill-conceived country-specific nerfs they applied to countries like the Ottomans in previous patches). But the current core nerf, while admittedly slight, is an overall negative for the game, with zero historical justification and precious little game-play justification.

If you want to nerf BYZ based on historical considerations, there's lots that can be done and you've got load better ways to do it, some of which have been suggested in this thread. Was that the goal? Or you can buff the Ottomans, if that's the goal? But kludgy, inconsistent tweaks to selected cores, based on nothing, is just lame. It's not an effective nerf. It's not an effective buff. It undermines the rebel system while covering up what may, indeed, be a weakness of it.

It's hard to argue against the rebel system being clunky or having other problems. That is not what is at issue here that I'm defending against. This nerf to Byzantines is not something likely in ANY WAY to impact an AI Byzantine from 1444 until its eventual Ottoman death. Not at all. At the absolute best they might miss out on a Venetian defection, and even every removed core being handed to them is insufficient to deter the AI's destiny to be eaten by someone. As a result, this change, outside of its impact on a human player, is to rebellions alone - a change intended to alter rebellions from such a massive swathe of Byzantines to a variety of moral local flavors, or just generic Greek culture or Orthodox religious rebellions.

Are you arguing that Byzantine rebels are better than Greek rebels and therefore this nerfed rebel power? In that sense, nerfing how awful the Ottomans fare against rebels may make this an even better change than I thought! I'm frankly all for a heavy nerf against the rebel hordes the Ottomans routinely succumb to that make the early 20th century Balkans look tame and subdued.



In the end, what this nerfs is Byzantine human players, and only Byzantine human players, but also only AFTER they've already finished their opener and started moving. Byzantine ideas are incredibly powerful, with tons of conversion, TTF and stability; losing a few cores is not a big deal since a player who owns Greece and has Balkan vassals is already a monster and they're just even more icing on the easymode cake at the point.
 

BFTeixeira

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If you make BYZ a vassal at 1444, they will virtually always exist past 1453. They will also virtually never fight a war against the Ottomans.

Whatever the BYZ/Otto relation was precisely at 1444, it was not what the *game* defines as a vassal, because the Ottomans clearly did not have that kind of influence to the point where they could simply take remaining territory with nary a shot fired or sword crossed. You can't refute that reality, and that is why your vassal assertion is wrong beyond the point of mere opinion. What you want would require a new type of relation the game doesn't have.
Not a new type of relation. Just look at what you have now with El Dorado. You put Byz as a vassal of Otto, and start with a 100 LD.
 

yerm

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For next patch, we're replacing the Byzantine purple map color with the most hideous shade of green we can find.

Existing/starting country flag and color editor is the next addition coming to EU4. I honestly expected this after they added a starting nation designer. You heard it right here, folks!
 

winsingtonIII

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no whats silly is that byzantium suddenly has no claim nor core on provinces it definitely would have a legitimate connection to? They're greek? Some of them are orthodox?

The way cores work in EU4 is nations only keep them on provinces they controlled within the last 150 years. Take a look at a map of the Byzantines around 1300, and that will show you the only provinces they should have cores on. In fact, here's one right here: http://info.euratlas.net/thumbs/balkans_1300.jpg Per that map, they should only get cores on Greece, Macedonia, Thrace, and the very Western edge of Anatolia, plus some islands in the Aegean.

I can see why people are frustrated about the removal of the cores on Aegean islands, but I can also see why it was done. It did sometimes result in Byzantine revolts in the 1500's that made no sense. The Byzantine Empire wasn't going to reform through popular demand in Naxos 100+ years after the fall of Constantinople.

I can't understand why people are frustrated about the removal of adding Byz cores after you take that decision. As the maps show, these were lands they hadn't controlled for 200 or in some cases even 300 years, and I don't see why they should get special treatment and ignore the core mechanics other nations have to follow. And they do still get claims from taking the decision, just not cores anymore... because no other formable nation gets free cores for that decision, only claims. Wiz is right, the Byzantines already start in a better situation than they were in historically in 1444, so I don't see why they should get additional special treatment.

Just to point something out, by your logic that they should get cores on the land simply because it is Greek and Orthodox, then shouldn't France receive free cores on every single province in the French culture group? Or maybe the Pope should receive free cores on every single Catholic province in the game! He's the leader of Catholicism after all!
 
Last edited:

yerm

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Not a new type of relation. Just look at what you have now with El Dorado. You put Byz as a vassal of Otto, and start with a 100 LD.

No. This still doesn't work. You start Byz with war reparations being paid to the Ottomans (and Muscovy and others paying such) and you might be pretty close; vassal is NOT what they were. A big neighbor bullying into your internal affairs is not the same thing as being a client state or feudal vassal no matter how much you'd love to win a forum argument and feel you're right.
 

TheMeInTeam

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The way cores work in EU4 is nations only keep them on provinces they controlled within the last 150 years. Take a look at a map of the Byzantines around 1300, and that will show you the only provinces they should have cores on. In fact, here's one right here: http://info.euratlas.net/thumbs/balkans_1300.jpg Per that map, they should only get cores on Greece, Macedonia, Thrace, and the very Western edge of Anatolia, plus some islands in the Aegean.

You are forgetting that ANY war against a nation with those cores resets the timer to a full 150 years.

I agree with you on the "form" decision, no reason for that to be inconsistent with the others.
 

cpm4001

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That would be AWESOME, but maybe not as awesome as some other choices. Wasn't there an old Germany color that isn't being used now?

Yeah, I'm upset that they'd give a nice green color to Byzantium instead of a more appropriate pale blue.
 

BFTeixeira

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No. This still doesn't work. You start Byz with war reparations being paid to the Ottomans (and Muscovy and others paying such) and you might be pretty close; vassal is NOT what they were. A big neighbor bullying into your internal affairs is not the same thing as being a client state or feudal vassal no matter how much you'd love to win a forum argument and feel you're right.
Sure. A state that pays tribute and asks it's who should be the ruler, most definitely is better represented as an Independent State. Absolutelly! Congratulations! You Win! :)