Discussion on how to nerf Byz more

[balmung60]

The outcry isn't about survival chance, but rather because 1.10 removed cores arbitrarily, another in a long line of nuisance changes. I actually dislike the over-rated loving of BYZ, but this has patterned itself so much (and is done with other game mechanics in EU also) that it annoys me despite not liking BYZ :/.

Not me. I don't like BYZ and it'll take quite a bit more nerfing before I'm actually mad about a BYZ nerf. That said, I'd have preferred a nerf to make their immediate situation more precarious, rather than to make their recovery tougher.

Does... byzantium seriously ever reform for you guys? Ever? That's the reason for deleting these cores -- so that it doesn't reform after annexation -- but...

I've never, EVER seen it happen. Ever. If the player doesn't force it, it just doesn't happen. The ottomans are too strong. Unless maybe it's because now disasters are more lethal, but what honest difference does removing those cores make when it still has cores all over greece? Surely if the ottomans would lose in anatolia, they'd lose in greece too, anyway.

Not only does it reform pretty much every time I'm not there to keep rebels or various belligerents from kicking out BYZ cores as independent (which then faffs about on Cyprus or Rhodes for the next couple hundred years), but 10 games out of 10, they last many decades longer than they historically did, which might be more due to the AI Ottomans being wildly incompetent, but still annoys me because I'd like to see BYZ being annexed before 1453 every once in a while. Or even 1463.

I won't miss the cores one little bit. Now if only they could do the same for the disgustingly out of place yellow cancer cores on Granada.

 

[1666846464]

Imagine if forming Germany gave you cores on all provinces in the german region that you did not own.

As a Vicky 2 player I was kind of disappointed to find out forming Germany did not in fact give you cores on the German region.

 

[jrk264]

But, since release, they gradually nickel and dime BYZ with gratuitous little nerfs every patch that really can't be justified in game terms. And they certainly don't make the situation historical. So why do we see the regular cycle? Are they confusing BYZ with Hordes?

Finally we've figured it out! 1.10 Byz shouldn't get any new units no matter how many tech levels it gains.

 

[Freudia]

As a Vicky 2 player I was kind of disappointed to find out forming Germany did not in fact give you cores on the German region.

Forming Germany would have been one of the most disgustingly overpowered decisions you could enact if it did give you cores on the German region. The German region is massive, and that's a lot of AE reduction just by having reconquest instead of conquest. Bonus points considering the German region is also largely the HRE, which has magic double AE generation as well.

 

[RobRoy3]

Forming Germany would have been one of the most disgustingly overpowered decisions you could enact if it did give you cores on the German region. The German region is massive, and that's a lot of AE reduction just by having reconquest instead of conquest. Bonus points considering the German region is also largely the HRE, which has magic double AE generation as well.

LOL. In EU3, most of the form nation decisions DID give you cores, so they really were something you aimed for. Frankly, they probably just forgot with the BYZ one, or were still in the mood to cater to byzophiles at that point. The decisions are so pale, by comparison in EU4, that I just view them as flag changes. Claims might be nice, but by the time you've formed these nations, you probably already have claims, cores, and ownership of most of those lands, anyway.

Oh, and the German decision WAS particularly lovely because it also gave you a +1 base_tax boost to every province in the german region.

 

[Viperswhip]

LOL. In EU3, most of the form nation decisions DID give you cores, so they really were something you aimed for. Frankly, they probably just forgot with the BYZ one, or were still in the mood to cater to byzophiles at that point. The decisions are so pale, by comparison in EU4, that I just view them as flag changes. Claims might be nice, but by the time you've formed these nations, you probably already have claims, cores, and ownership of most of those lands, anyway.

Oh, and the German decision WAS particularly lovely because it also gave you a +1 base_tax boost to every province in the german region.

Well, Byzantium can get all their cores if you form the Byzantine Empire from a different country, you just need primary culture to be greek and to be orthodox and own certain provinces, bam, cores on everything they had in EU3. It's so stupid it's sad. I've been doing an opening with Castile whereby I become Byzantium, but you lose the ability to form Spain then, so going back doesn't work, but you can get the Inheritance, the Wedding and form Byzantium really early in the game, it's pretty crazy powerful.

 

[Thesian]

LOL. In EU3, most of the form nation decisions DID give you cores, so they really were something you aimed for. Frankly, they probably just forgot with the BYZ one, or were still in the mood to cater to byzophiles at that point.

Curiously enough, they didn't forget the BYZ restoration decision. In fact, it was updated in 1.9 to also give cores on the provinces added in 1.8 like Chios and Theodoro. Of course, that doesn't change the fact this decision was by far the most powerful country formation in the game and, combined with the continuing nerfs to Byzantium proper, made playing Byzantium instead of restoring it as another nation look more and more masochist.

Well, Byzantium can get all their cores if you form the Byzantine Empire from a different country,... I become Byzantium, but you lose the ability to form Spain

You can't any longer when El Dorado hits. As Castille you just had to cahnge the order: culture shift/convert > form Spain (you don't need Spanish culture, just to be Castille) > form Byzantium.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Curiously enough, they didn't forget the BYZ restoration decision. In fact, it was updated in 1.9 to also give cores on the provinces added in 1.8. like Chios and Theodoro. Of course, that doesn't change the fact this decision was by far the most powerful country formation in the game and, combined with the continuing nerfs to Byzantium proper, made playing Byzantium instead of restoring it as another nation look more and more masochist.

BYZ is no masochist start. That's crap like Yaroslav or Ryazan (gets attacked by GH before you can do anything, so will be a vassal soon) in Eastern Europe. Or you can pick generic craptasms like Luwu or iffy idea groups in a terrible location like the Siberian councils which have only a couple viable ways to grow decently, or play as a Kongo vassal just because. Even Mongolia, the remnants of another great empire, is a harder start than BYZ and has been in every single patch I've played.

 

[Freudia]

You can't any longer when El Dorado hits. As Castille you just had to cahnge the order: culture shift/convert > form Spain (you don't need Spanish culture, just to be Castille) > form Byzantium.

Spain is a culture union, so it can't form Byzantium, to my knowledge. Most culture unions are specifically barred from forming other culture unions; the exception to this is forming the HRE, which can be done through a button that gets to ignore all other game mechanics.

 

[Thesian]

BYZ is no masochist start.

That was worded poorly, I admitted earlier that BYZ even after all nerfs is still easier than many comparatively tough starts (like Granada, Knights, Theodoro), and those are far easier than masochist ones like the one's you described. I was just referring to the increasing power gap in terms of free expansion potential between the original and the restored Empire.

Spain is a culture union, so it can't form Byzantium, to my knowledge. Most culture unions are specifically barred from forming other culture unions;

You are mistaken, all culture unions can't culture shift, but if you can form them without (still) belonging to a culture in that union, you can still form any nation not barred by other factors, culture union or not. I don't know of any other cultural unions than Diplo-Spain that can be formed without having a primary culture within it's group, though.
Edit: I just checked, diplomatically forming Great Britain also just requires you to be England or Scotland, not to belong to their culture group.

 

[PiriReis]

Just to put things in perspective: "In 1453, when the Ottoman Turks captured the city, it contained approximately 50,000 people." (Source: English Wikipedia) That is represented by a base tax of 9.
Lübeck had a population of around 22,000 people (1460, German Wikipedia). It's represented by a base tax of 12.
München had a population of around 12,000 people (1462, German Wikipedia). It's represented by a base tax of 14. Sure, the respective provinces is larger than just the city, but it's still called München, not Oberbayern.

Of course, Lübeck was probably far richer in 1444 than Constantinople, but that is already somewhat represented by the Merchant Republic government. So maybe Constantinople's base tax is a bit high, but I wouldn't call it absurdly high.

Granada had 90.000 in 1400 and 165.000 in 1450 (Chandler (1987)) but is represented by a mere basetax 6.

 

[Knut Skallagrim]

Eu4 is the easiest iteration on which you can core stuff, so real nerfs are the ones done on national ideas i believe, and ottos know that...

 

[Mikalos]

As a Vicky 2 player I was kind of disappointed to find out forming Germany did not in fact give you cores on the German region.

vicky 2 didnt either, the cores were already there.

less railroading is better railroading

 

[Freudia]

You are mistaken, all culture unions can't culture shift, but if you can form them without (still) belonging to a culture in that union, you can still form any nation not barred by other factors, culture union or not. I don't know of any other cultural unions than Spain that can be formed without having a primary culture within it's group, though.

Ah, never mind. I see the problem with my reasoning being that I wasn't aware the 'Form Spain Diplomatically' option didn't have a culture requirement tethered to it; just a tag requirement. Okay, that explains a lot. Yeah, as Castile you should be able to form Spain and then Byzantium, so what you said is indeed correct. Just Spain and the HRE can be formed without being the right culture, though, and only Castile's option to form Spain diplomatically allows it to be formed without the culture requirement. All other cultural unions require being the right culture before you can see the decision.

 

[Kraxis]

The problem lies with revolters really. You can't really do anything about a third party demanding someone to release a nation. Unless of course there is a decision or event after BYZ is dead that removes all it's cores (which would probably be a much much better way of handling the issue). The revolters reforming the Byzantine Empire will still happen. All it takes is The Ottomans getting a serious beatdown, and that happens regularly enough (if not commonly). And if it is the matter of Naxos revolting and forming the Byzantine Empire rather than Naxos, well that is a problem of the national culture, rather than the problem of anything related with BYZ. There are so many other options out there that are vastly more silly than this, yet they get to stay.

So instead of removing the cores from the map (reformed Empire getting Claims instead, is perfectly ok, in fact it is as it should be) maybe, just maybe a fix for revolters and enforced releases should be fixed instead. And as mentioned the latter could be fixed by a post 'death' event removing all BYZ cores. It also seems that it is the Empire reforming that is causing people a certain amount of hate. So let's focus on that instead.

 

[snakebite528]

The Byzantine "Empire" should be set up to fail in EU4 like it did in real life. I'm glad paradox have further nerfed them to properly reflect history - It's sad that people will complain and ask why Paradox have ruined the Byzantines yet these same people will complain about lack of historical accuracy. A week Byzantium is historically accurate as the Ottoman Turks pummeled the fake Romans into ash. Nothing makes me more disgusted than the repulsive purple tumour that won't leave Asia Minor. Amen.

 

[Kraxis]

The Byzantine "Empire" should be set up to fail in EU4 like it did in real life. I'm glad paradox have further nerfed them to properly reflect history - It's sad that people will complain and ask why Paradox have ruined the Byzantines yet these same people will complain about lack of historical accuracy. A week Byzantium is historically accurate as the Ottoman Turks pummeled the fake Romans into ash. Nothing makes me more disgusted than the repulsive purple tumour that won't leave Asia Minor. Amen.

Since it isn't even in Asia Minor...

 

[snakebite528]

Since it isn't even in Asia Minor...

İstanbul

 

[Alerias]

It's been nerfed more than enough. There's really nothing left to remove from them IMO.

 

[vanukar]

The Byzantine "Empire" should be set up to fail in EU4 like it did in real life. I'm glad paradox have further nerfed them to properly reflect history - It's sad that people will complain and ask why Paradox have ruined the Byzantines yet these same people will complain about lack of historical accuracy. A week Byzantium is historically accurate as the Ottoman Turks pummeled the fake Romans into ash. Nothing makes me more disgusted than the repulsive purple tumour that won't leave Asia Minor. Amen.

Is this ironic?