Discussion - Is EU4 more complex than Chess?

[Grand Historian]

So, this was a question I've been thinking over for a while now, and wanted to get the forum's opinion on - is EU4 a more complex game than chess?

Chess, seemingly simple, with only six different pieces on each side that you can only move in certain manners, and only two players, is one of history's most complex and intuitive games, spawning endless scenarios and a cadre of people who spend all their time plotting them out like algorithms.

EU4, the complete opposite at face value, has a massive amount of different nations, each with their own unique flavor, and an ever-increasing amount of refined mechanics to immerse you deeper into the game, spawning, again, endless scenarios and a cadre of people who spend all their time plotting them out like algorithms.

So, what's your opinion?

 

[EldarPanic]

No

 

[TheMeInTeam]

1. Chess is overrated. It's a fine game but gets too much attention compared to alternatives.
2. Comparisons to chess are tired, to the point where bringing back 5 year old memes is preferable.
3. EU IV has more complexity than chess in that there are more possible moves and more contingencies to consider.
4. In contrast to EU IV, chess does not hide its rules or heap on other fake difficulty that damages the impact of strategy. This fake difficulty is not a legit component of EU IV complexity.
5. Core gameplay between the two make comparisons beyond the most rudimentary ones silly.

 

[Wanzer]

EU4 is more complex than Chess, yes. However, comparing the two seems silly. They aren't really similar in any way.

 

[EnricoMettifogo]

on related questions, which is harder, playing football or fencing?
laying on your belly or on your back?
WE MUST ASK THE REAL QUESTIONS OF LIFE!

 

[Ixal]

Despite its reputation Chess is a very simple game. EU4 is much more complex (has a lot more variables) than chess.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

on related questions, which is harder, playing football or fencing?
laying on your belly or on your back?
WE MUST ASK THE REAL QUESTIONS OF LIFE!

Fencing requires a disambiguation anyway .

 

[FatHippo]

I could explain the difference between complexity and depth, or could I let someone else do it for me:

So going by their definition, EU IV has far more complexity than Chess due to the number of choices presented, the amount of rules that need to be understood, the data you need to grapple with. But does this lead to a lot of depth? In the case of EU IV, I would argue that it has a very high complexity in comparison to its depth, but that depth is still quite high. Just maybe not as high as it should optimally be, given its complexity. I'm not good enough at chess to know whether its depth is comparable, though I do believe it has one of the highest depth/complexity ratios of all games, even though this isn't actually quantifiable.

 

[Cryoshakespeare]

EU4 is less meaningfully complex than chess. What I mean by this is that different states in EU4 are often quite comparable, as a rule of thumb, most nations are going to play quite similarly. Comparatively, the rules of chess necessitate that each individual position can have an incredible number of ramifications for how the match will progress - deep analysis will show very different outcomes in different scenarios.

 

[FloatingOrb]

Ok, chess isn't that complicated. It is simple enough that computers can beat grandmasters through brute forcing every possibility. In fact, after the first few moves (2 or 3 I believe) chess has been solved.

A better comparison would be GO, which has a ridiculous amount of possibilities each turn.

Side note, checkers has been solved by computers. the 5x5 board of Go has also been solved, but since most people play 19x19, it isnt all that impressive.

 

[AP85]

I've thought about this too, and yes, it is. There are exponentially more variables in EU4.

 

[Grand Historian]

Ok, chess isn't that complicated. It is simple enough that computers can beat grandmasters through brute forcing every possibility. In fact, after the first few moves (2 or 3 I believe) chess has been solved.

A better comparison would be GO, which has a ridiculous amount of possibilities each turn.

Side note, checkers has been solved by computers. the 5x5 board of Go has also been solved, but since most people play 19x19, it isnt all that impressive.

I'm pretty sure EU4 can also be 'solved' by computers.

EU4 is more complex than Chess, yes. However, comparing the two seems silly. They aren't really similar in any way.

Quite the contrary: EU4 and Chess are very similar fundamentally. Both are games of time and influence; you only have so much time, and you need to accomplish as much as possible with it. Just like in EU4, the more influence you exert over the board in chess, or, rather, the less of the board you have to worry about (just like the less amount of fronts you have to be concerned over in EU4), the better you are. And if you can't accomplish a checkmate within the timelimit, the winner is judged based on how many points (the individual rating of a piece) they acquired.

 

[Cryoshakespeare]

Ok, chess isn't that complicated. It is simple enough that computers can beat grandmasters through brute forcing every possibility. In fact, after the first few moves (2 or 3 I believe) chess has been solved.

A better comparison would be GO, which has a ridiculous amount of possibilities each turn.

Side note, checkers has been solved by computers. the 5x5 board of Go has also been solved, but since most people play 19x19, it isnt all that impressive.

Chess is complex and deep, this isn't a fact that is negated by the ability of computers to perform at high levels in it. It's an inaccuracy to say that chess is solved in the first few moves, because in any given situation there are actually several "best moves", which can lead to equal winning chances and entirely different games.

 

[Junuxx]

TMIT and FatHippo already said it well.

To point out a few key differences from an AI/search tree point of view:
- Chess has a fully observable game state, EU4 does not.
- Chess has deterministic rules (if you make move X, there is exactly one possible result state Y), EU4 is probabilistic (if you make move X, a dice throw determines the resulting state). These first two properties make it a partially observable Markov decision process, POMDP.
- Chess has a well defined goal state/victory condition, EU4 does not.
- Chess is strictly zero sum. Any desirable outcome for player 1 is necessarily equally undesirable for player 2. In EU4, because of its diplomacy model and the previous item, it's different
- Chess has a fairly low branching factor (distinct possible moves at each turn, on avg around 35 in chess) and a fairly limited game length (around 40 turns). EU4 has an overwhelmingly larger game space in both metrics.

It's an inaccuracy to say that chess is solved in the first few moves, because in any given situation there are actually several "best moves", which can lead to equal winning chances and entirely different games.

Not really. That's only because we can't do a *full* search of the chess state space yet. Eventually though, chess will be solved to the same degree as tic-tac-toe, and we will finally know whether perfect play guarantees a win for white, or just a draw.

 

[Kirkegaard]

Ok, chess isn't that complicated. It is simple enough that computers can beat grandmasters through brute forcing every possibility. In fact, after the first few moves (2 or 3 I believe) chess has been solved.

This is absolutely untrue. Chess software does not only brute force, it is much more complicated than that. And chess is not solved after the first 2-3 moves. How could it be, there are infinite possible games to be played after this. Endgame play with up to a total of 6 pieces are however solved.

On the topic, then I would say that EU4 is a very, very simple game compared to chess. The amount of mental challenges and situations that require thought are quite limited in EU4.

 

[Junuxx]

How could it be, there are infinite possible games to be played after this.

Infinite?

 

[Kirkegaard]

Infinite?

We are talking at minimum 10^120 so, to all practical application it is infinite.

Edit: it is called Shanons number in math.

 

[Arcyinkwizytor]

Chess is a non-random game of complete information. EUIV is not. So comparison is rather difficult.
But I think EUIV is harder to learn, easier to master, so I would go with theory that chess is more complex.

 

[Krajzen]

on related questions, which is harder, playing football or fencing?
laying on your belly or on your back?
WE MUST ASK THE REAL QUESTIONS OF LIFE!

Why something exists rather than nothing?
What is nothing?
What is something?
Why something is different than nothing?
Can we say nothing exists or should we rather say it doesn't exist?

^I have started a course in Philosophy and this is a crap I need to deal with. And yeah I won't be a good philosopher.

 

[Wanzer]

I'm pretty sure EU4 can also be 'solved' by computers.



Quite the contrary: EU4 and Chess are very similar fundamentally. Both are games of time and influence; you only have so much time, and you need to accomplish as much as possible with it. Just like in EU4, the more influence you exert over the board in chess, or, rather, the less of the board you have to worry about (just like the less amount of fronts you have to be concerned over in EU4), the better you are. And if you can't accomplish a checkmate within the timelimit, the winner is judged based on how many points (the individual rating of a piece) they acquired.

We must play EU4 very differently. Chess has a specific goal: putting your opponent into Checkmate. EU4 has no such goal, at least not for me. Every time I play it's a different start with a different goal. There is no real Victory condition except for the one you provide yourself.