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HansBaer

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I know this has been discussed before, but i want to bring the ally mechanics back to your attention.
First i want to explain what i am talking about exactly:

Let's say you start as a random Dutch OPM. The basic strategy is to ally France or Austria or both and let them crush Burgundy. In reality, you will dow them or provoke them into attacking you, then hide your army somewhere until Austria and/or France wiped all their stacks. Then your glorious appearance on the battlefield comes in form of sitting on the desired provinces until they are sieged down, always watching France's war enthusiasm so they won't peace out before you can.
You can apply this strategy to almost any minor, e.g. "look for big brother, let him do the heavy lifting, earn the fruits of his endeavors"

For me, this is the biggest problem right now in game, as it takes the challenge of almost all my game starts, unless i start as a doomed one (Grenada, Byzantium, some Vassal). This can be compensated by self imposed restrictions and role playing, but only to a degree.
Don't get me wrong, i love how the games works and i was hooked longer than on most other games, but right now i am at a point where it is hard for me to get fun out of it anymore, because i don't like easy games or artificial houserules, i need my challenge.
Now the thread serves two purposes:

First, am i alone with this opinion?

You could say i am a "powergamer", in absence of a better term. Once a game really gets to me, as EU 4 certainly did and very few others did in recent years, i dive in really deep until i know every detail and am "better" than most (if it is competitive). So maybe if you have a more casual approach to the game, you won't feel the same at all. For me, it is the most pressing gameplay-matter of them all, far more important than the coalition and AE mechanics everyone is so opinionated about.

Second, suggestions and discussions of possible changes to the current mechanics?

The obvious solution would be to give everyone his individual warscore, but this of course sounds far easier than it is in reality. Who ends the war? If everyone takes 3 provinces, what's left of the victim? Who decides who gets what?
A easier and inferior solution would be to just prohibit alliances unless you are x% the size of country A. Of course, this would make many nations doomed from scratch and can be a problem for the HRE especially. Maybe if the AI used "proclaim guarantee" more often, this could be balanced.

I'm excited to hear about your opinions on this matter.
Please note that i don't count the "just don't do it" argument as valid when talking about (computer-)games, so keep it to yourselves if possible. Rules are there for a reason, that's why many people love ironman mode.
 
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Penguintopia

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First, am i alone with this opinion?
You could say i am a "powergamer", in lack of a better term. Once a game really gets to me, as EU 4 certainly did and very few others did in recent years, i dive in really deep until i know every detail and am "better" than most (if it is competitive). So maybe if you have a more casual approach to the game, you won't feel the same at all. For me, it is so most pressing matter of them all, far more important then the coalition and AE mechanics everyone is so opinionated about.

Second, suggestions and discussions of possible changes the current mechanics?

The obvious solution would be to give everyone his individual warscore, but this of course sounds far easier than it is in reality. Who ends the war? If everyone takes 3 provinces, what's left of the victim? Who decides who gets what?
A easier and inferior solution would be to just prohibits alliances unless you are x% of size of country A. Of course, this would make many nations doomed from scratch and can be a problem for the HRE especially.

I'm excited to hear about your opinions of this matter.
Please note that i don't count the "just don't do it" argument as valid when talking about (computer-)games, so keep it to yourselves if possible. Rules are there for a reason, that's why many people love ironman mode.

You are not alone. I have similar thoughts. In my mod i'm making wholesale changes and addition to common/ai_attitudes. For example, I've added a mechanic where France will diplomatically ignore anyone outside of their vassals or countries that hold territory in 'France proper'. This is in effect until France has unified to some extent. This makes them far less likely to ally with OPMs for several decades while they focus on consolidation. Since the attitude files can take almost any trigger/condition, and can set whether a country will try to ally, feels threatened, wants to vassalize, etc, this can take some of the gaminess out of the early game...
 

sinkingmist

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You are not alone. I have similar thoughts. In my mod i'm making wholesale changes and addition to common/ai_attitudes. For example, I've added a mechanic where France will diplomatically ignore anyone outside of their vassals or countries that hold territory in 'France proper'. This is in effect until France has unified to some extent. This makes them far less likely to ally with OPMs for several decades while they focus on consolidation. Since the attitude files can take almost any trigger/condition, and can set whether a country will try to ally, feels threatened, wants to vassalize, etc, this can take some of the gaminess out of the early game...

Hmm, that's an interesting idea.
You could also make it so lucky nations never ally other lucky nations (with a possible exception between CAS/SPA and POR) and human players, which would actually resolve a large part of the massive alliance-networks problem (and the abuse and/or frustration that results from it).
 

HansBaer

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You are not alone. I have similar thoughts. In my mod i'm making wholesale changes and addition to common/ai_attitudes. For example, I've added a mechanic where France will diplomatically ignore anyone outside of their vassals or countries that hold territory in 'France proper'. This is in effect until France has unified to some extent. This makes them far less likely to ally with OPMs for several decades while they focus on consolidation. Since the attitude files can take almost any trigger/condition, and can set whether a country will try to ally, feels threatened, wants to vassalize, etc, this can take some of the gaminess out of the early game...

That's certainly a good start as France is one of the main offenders. I guess everybody has made France their war-bitch in one game or another :)
Ideally, i would love to see minors still being able to ally whomever they like, but some risk involved regarding oversized allies. Let's say you ally France to have an easy time uniting Italy. Ok, fine, you can do that. But what if France decides they want Rome and Liguria for themselves? Your own fault, see how you solve that situation after you pissed of all of Europe together with your BBB Buddy.
 
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The-King

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I think this is a minor issue but what is the fix? On the opposite spectrum you would have people complaining about useless AI allies doing nothing to help their supposed allies. The diplomacy and the AI do not have as much depth that a human wouldn't be able to figure it out and abuse it. I'm still interested to hear ideas to fix this but I'm doubtful.
 

HansBaer

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I think this is a minor issue but what is the fix?
True, I guess it is very depended on your playstyle. What i like most is to play a very weak nation to start with and achieve something very rewarding at a certain point, like forming the Netherlands, forming France as a minor, dismantle Austria as Bavaria, stuff like that. The problem is, it doesn't feel rewarding anymore as i know the AI's alliance behavior so well that everything is very easily achievable. I would love to actually be forced to need 150 years to form the Netherlands in the late 16th century, i did it once without any allies and it took roughly that amount time, but it didn't feel right.
And once your former allies start regarding you big enough to be a threat, you are at a stage where you usually don't need allies anymore. Worst case scenario at this point is being forced to release a nation or two which you reannex 5-15 years later anyway, free AE reduction all inclusive (you can even do it on purpose, but that's another matter).



The diplomacy and the AI do not have as much depth that a human wouldn't be able to figure it out and abuse it.

You are right, but the current alliance-system isn't an abuse at all, it is entirely WAD, which it shouldn't be imho. It's nothing gamey like releasing vassals on different continents and stuff like that. I can keep myself from doing that, because it is obviously not wad.
 

Elshar

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That's certainly a good start as France is one of the main offenders. I guess everybody has made France their war-bitch in one game or another :)
Ideally, i would love to see minors still being able to ally whomever they like, but some risk involved regarding oversized allies. Let's say you ally France to have an easy time uniting Italy. Ok, fine, you can do that. But what if France decides they want Rome and Liguria for themselves? Your own fault, see how you solve that situation after you pissed of all of Europe together with your BBB Buddy.

I'm pretty bad with this. If I'm playing in western Europe, France, GB and Castille/Spain and Austria are my first-choice gotos for immediate power in alliances.

Just started a game as Byz though, and I have to say that it's very doable using Serbia and Wallachia and catching OE at war far away in Tunis or some other place. You actually start out with 3 provs + Vassal, and it's possible to nab Albania and peace out for 3 prov + 2 vassals. Then nab Rhodes for 4, Maybe Cyprus and Crete defect for 6, and you're off...

It's only at first glance that it seems that Byz is doomed from the start. But considering they have cores on nearly all of Greece + Anatolia, it's super easy to expand early on.

I do agree though that alliances are lopsided at the moment. I've managed to finagle my way into an alliance with soon-to-be Russia as well as Hungary. So, they'll probably be my extra manpower store to really start the steamroller on OE and Crimea. Shouldn't be able to do that as a fragile 3-6 prov minor.
 

HansBaer

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I'm pretty bad with this. If I'm playing in western Europe, France, GB and Castille/Spain and Austria are my first-choice gotos for immediate power in alliances.

Just started a game as Byz though, and I have to say that it's very doable using Serbia and Wallachia and catching OE at war far away in Tunis or some other place. You actually start out with 3 provs + Vassal, and it's possible to nab Albania and peace out for 3 prov + 2 vassals. Then nab Rhodes for 4, Maybe Cyprus and Crete defect for 6, and you're off...

It's only at first glance that it seems that Byz is doomed from the start. But considering they have cores on nearly all of Greece + Anatolia, it's super easy to expand early on.

I do agree though that alliances are lopsided at the moment. I've managed to finagle my way into an alliance with soon-to-be Russia as well as Hungary. So, they'll probably be my extra manpower store to really start the steamroller on OE and Crimea. Shouldn't be able to do that as a fragile 3-6 prov minor.

Well, of course it is doable, and in feels rewarding because you have to fight your own wars, as it should be. Also, notice, it's very doable for you because you already know the fleshed out strategy, and even with that in mind you probably won't do it on your first few tries. Try your luck with Grenada without reading any guides first :)
In contrast, it is almost impossible to fail as any European Minor once you allied one of the blobs, as you are always superior to other minors thanks to their support.
 

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Interestingly, it's taken me about 10-12 games to figure out that strat. Not entirely sure what I'd do for Grenada. I've attempted it once before half-heartedly, but I wasn't terribly interested at the time.

I do agree, OPMs in Europe are unbeatable as long as you don't screw up your alliances, and that needs to be fixed. Really the only OPMs that should realistically have any hope of allying a larger power should be the HRE OPMs with Austria/Bavaria/Bohemia, since the HRE Emperor / Wannabes should have a vested interest in keeping them free and safe until the final reform.
 

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I think the true balance is allowing AI to Diplo Anex Human player.
If you play as such small nation, and reach opinion 190+ of allied AI, he will propose you to be his vassal and you can't refuse. (if you pass the other checks that would be in effect let you be an ai nation proposed by a human)

about the war score system it makes sense that your allies will help you to gain the target province.
 

HansBaer

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I think the true balance is allowing AI to Diplo Anex Human player.
If you play as such small nation, and reach opinion 190+ of allied AI, he will propose you to be his vassal and you can't refuse. (if you pass the other checks that would be in effect let you be an ai nation proposed by a human)

about the war score system it makes sense that your allies will help you to gain the target province.

I don't think so. As a human, there would be countless ways to avoid that. Dissolve the alliance, be in constant wars, rival him, play a republic, don't rm any blob, have a tax base over 12, only ally distant blobs and so on.
And what makes sense in France sieging half of Central Europe to enable you to vassalize Genoa? The only thing they get out of it is helping you grow bigger until you can dispose of them, a load of war exhaustion and a loss of manpower and money. Not very realistic, neither gameplay, political scientific nor history wise. There are no altruistic nations and never have been, the mere existence of a nation contradicts it as the prime motive of every nation is self-preservation.

I do agree, OPMs in Europe are unbeatable as long as you don't screw up your alliances, and that needs to be fixed. Really the only OPMs that should realistically have any hope of allying a larger power should be the HRE OPMs with Austria/Bavaria/Bohemia, since the HRE Emperor / Wannabes should have a vested interest in keeping them free and safe until the final reform.

Good suggestion imho. Also, the big HRE Members shouldn't join your internal conquests so easily. It is kind of ridiculous that Austria will most certainly help you in the Brandenburgian conquest of Pomerania. They will even help you in vassalizing electors that aren't allied to them, just so you can take the HRE from them!
Additionally, the Emperor and his allies should automatically be called to arms (e.g. Austria becomes defensive Warleader) if you drag any external power into an offensive internal HRE war. Can you imagine the Emperor doing nothing while 50k French doomstacks march through the Low Countries in the Utrechtian conquest of Gelre? I most certainly can't.
 
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