Disappointed with generic NIs
- Thread starter TheDarkMaster
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These cases should never happen, the Portuguese province should revolt when Prussia is going down.
Yeah, and In the first time, Prussia shouldn't even have Portuguese provinces.
Yeah, but I still think it wouldn't make sense even this way. Portugal wouldn't have like to be ruled from a king who lives 2000 km far.
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National Ideas are not designed to represent geographical role holders. Its not meant to be that any nation in northern Germany that fills the role of a strong land power should get Prussian National Ideas. The National ideas are specifically designed to represent the beliefs, ideas, philosophy of governance that that specific nation had. Its specific solutions to various areas of governance. If Prussia fails to exist and another land power forms in its place it can still quite happily and effectively fill the role of being a north Germanic land power using the generic Idea trees of aristocracy and offensive. It doesn't need Prussians national ideas to do so. Nor should it get them simply because they are a land power in the same region.
Again not every nation comes to the same conclusion of how to govern themselves. And just because you want to be a naval power doesn't mean you should be able to somehow get English national ideas.
Under that logic, NIs should be given at random, or based on the traditions and abilities of your monarchs or ideas at the time you unlock them. I'd be fine with that too.
EDIT: Random because the instant you unpause the game, all bets are off and there is no way to know how things will turn out. Chaos theory and all that.
False. national ideas should not be random in fact via this logic they should be far from it.
The National ideas do not just represent a single generation's attempts at solutions or their principles of governance. They represent the trend of that nations solutions based on what their historical solutions were based on how effective the nation was during history.
Not everything in EU4 is all bets are off. There are dynamic historical events. England can get but doesn't always get a war of the roses event chain. This can only happen to England. Why? because historically England had this happen. National ideas are similar in that they are a representation of the approaches that nation took in our history. Now you are not locked into doing the same things. You can make Prussian a naval power and rule the seas gaining trade by taking the every generic idea tree that gives a naval bonus and trade. But your Prussian aristocracy will still believe that an army should be organized in x y and Z manner. And here is the kicker your naval Prussia will not be as powerful on land as a Prussian that took offensive and aristocracy vs naval and trade. So there is still plenty of divergence by what you select with the generic idea trees.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't total or near total changes to the entire government systems semi-common in the EU4 time period? I mean, take the Teutonic Order (turning into Kingdom out of Holy Order), or France (feudal monarchy, into admin monarchy, into absolute monarchy, into revolutionary state) for example? Those are radically different forms of organization and government with very different people running the show.
So? that doesn't equate to change in what the national Ideas represent. The English go from an absolute Monarchy to a Republic in the time period. The lord protector still pursued a naval strategy. And fought two wars with the Dutch over English naval; concerns.
Look Its obvious you want to be the Pro from dover. You want to be able to have the best ideas in the chosen field you pursue or if not that not have anyone else have better ideas then you have in said field. Well I can't ever seeing the game bending to your desire. So far you have completely ignored what NIs actually are and keep trying to morph them into something they are not to justify your position.
national Ideas are boons a country gets because historically they had policies that their ideas try to mimic. Some Ideas are better because some approaches that nations employed were better. Also some nations get a boost because historically they did quite well and NIs are just another tool to help these nations do better in the game then other nations who did not fair so well. This is all that NIs are.
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Hold on there, up until around 1500, England was most decidedly a land power. They had no navy to speak of until then, and their near complete helplessness when it came to French and Spanish raids during the hundred years war was one of the main reasons the nation did a complete 180 to focus on their naval power to the detriment of their army.
I don't care so much about having the best ideas, so much as being able to get ideas other then the generic ones. The idea behind the NIs is to help direct the various nations in the world to specialize in the fields that they were historically strongest in, and set up a certain power block in the world. Especially with the save game converter now announced, I don't think it is all that unreasonable to expect nations with generic ideas to have the possibility to gain the historic NIs of whatever neck of the woods they happen to have their capital in. It would be even better if you can still do this even after already having historical NIs, but if not, that's fine. However, I do think you agree that it would be nice that if Serbia becomes a major trading power on the Mediterranean and absorbs Venice, it makes sense for them to be able to adopt Venetian NIs. If someone converts a game over with the duchy of York, it makes sense for such a nation to have the English NIs rather than the generic set.
Not relevant because England's National idea are abstract bonuses the represent her approaches over almost a 400 year time frame of the game. Again you are trying to narrow the ideas to the current state of the nation but they are NOT designed to represent that.
It is completely unreasonable for you to expect paradox to balance and set up mechanics for you to get non generic nation based national Ideas for every nation in the world. Its far too much work and something that regional DLCs work perfectly to fill a need for. Why is it reasonable that they should get them?
No I don't agree that a Serbia that becomes a major trading power and annexes Venice should get Venice's ideas. If anything it should convince the Serbs that their approaches to things were superior to Venetian approach so they would have more reason to believe their ideas are better. Serbia already has ideas that represent her choices to move into trade by taking the TRADE idea tree. There is nothing that says Serbian rulers should suddenly drop their beliefs and choose to pick up the beliefs of a nation that failed to survive.
Well, which stance are you taking? That NIs are about the history of a nation before the game starts or not?
I think there was a lost in translation situation here. Nothing I said means I was talking about exclusively a nations history before the game starts.
What I am saying is that National ideas represent a nations historical approach to governance. And by history I mean actual real world history not game history.
And I thought I was saying that there wasn't any reason that another nation couldn't use the same approach if they found themselves in the same situation as that other nation, just under a different name...
You said that but I disagree.
You can take SIMILAR approaches which is what the generic non national ideas represent. Want to be a Prussian trade power? Then take the Trade NI tree. BUT the specific national ideas are what they are because of what nations actually did in our real life history. If a nation didn't do anything significant on the global scale then its not going to get super national ideas but if it was a world leader in an area then it is going to get great national ideas. I have no problem with this. It gives nations that historically did well a boost and those nations that didn't make a huge impact get generic less impressive ideas. Why? because they didn't make an impact in real life during the games timeframe.
[edit] I also do not fine the generic Nation based ideas to be as bad as you make them out to be. They are well rounded giving economic, social and military advantages.
Does that include random Italian republics that might have split off of Venice or Genoa during a CK2 game, or a German duchy on the North Sea that is essentially Brandenburg, but under a different name?
For a "random" nation to split off from a larger body requires significant internal or external forces. If it is external then the people who forced the nation to split off might not want to see another Prussia or Genoa/Venice forming. In fact it would be a bloody safe bet as they are the ones trying to reduce the power of the larger nation. Don't you think they would do everything they can to influence things so the people who gain power have different beliefs then the host nation?
If the nation splits off the larger nation from internal pressure then its blindingly obvious that they DONT like the approaches that were being used that is why they broke away in the first place so it makes perfect sense for them to NOT have the same ideas because they were unhappy with things under these ideas.
CK2 is NOT the basis nor should it be used as a basis for systems in EU4. I do not agree with your premise that location must equal the opportunity to get the same ideas. The converter is simply a bonus tool and should not be used as the foundation for a reason to change how mechanics work in EU4. All the converter does is create a mod to use in EU4 I have no problem with players using mods but the use of a mod isn't reason to change mechanics of the core game.
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