Disappointed with generic NIs

[Grubnessul]

I can't say whether I'm overplaying it as I haven't played the game. Have you?

It's not a very good defense either way; the bonuses have been implemented, obviously will have some effect (large or small is irrelevant), and so I'm discussing how they have been implemented.

These bonuses should be situational, as they were historically, rather than pre-determined. If I take France, move it to Britain and discard my continental holdings, then I will be in the same situation as England, yet it has been arbitrarily decided that my navy will be weaker. I'm questioning the logic behind that.

The logic is that different countries have different strengths to keep them interesting. Take the North Italian states for example. By your logic, they'd all play the same and you'd have a blob covering Northern Italy with exactly the same capabilities, regardless of whether you started with Venice, Milan, Florence or Piedmont. With the current system, you'll have different strengths each time.

 

[Meneth]

Also Ethiopia

Added.

You can add things yourself as well pretty easily

 

[Dutchling]

Does "Dutch" refers to just the Netherlands or also the Dutch minors? It would be pretty odd for a country to have 'Amsterdam Wisselbank' that never held Amsterdam

 

[Meneth]

Does "Dutch" refers to just the Netherlands or also the Dutch minors? It would be pretty odd for a country to have 'Amsterdam Wisselbank' that never held Amsterdam

It was never specified in the dev diary, so I have no idea.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

Added.

You can add things yourself as well pretty easily

Ah, I didn't know, never used a wiki, only read

EDIT: Added the remaining countries
EDIT2: Added also the Indian Sultanates ideas.

 

[Meneth]

Ah, I didn't know, never used a wiki, only read

EDIT: Added the remaining countries
EDIT2: Added also the Indian Sultanates ideas.

Thanks a bunch. If you see anything else that needs improvement don't hesitate to fix it.

 

[ABookshelf]

I can't say whether I'm overplaying it as I haven't played the game. Have you?

It's not a very good defense either way; the bonuses have been implemented, obviously will have some effect (large or small is irrelevant), and so I'm discussing how they have been implemented.

These bonuses should be situational, as they were historically, rather than pre-determined. If I take France, move it to Britain and discard my continental holdings, then I will be in the same situation as England, yet it has been arbitrarily decided that my navy will be weaker. I'm questioning the logic behind that.

France gets no penalties to their navy and actually I don't think any countries get a penalty to their navy so I'm not sure where you're getting that your navy will be weaker.

 

[unmerged(584823)]

France gets no penalties to their navy and actually I don't think any countries get a penalty to their navy so I'm not sure where you're getting that your navy will be weaker.

Why France should have a malus ? They had one of the best navy in the world.

 

[ABookshelf]

Think you misunderstood my post

 

[Felicity]

Think you misunderstood my post

What the person you quoted meant was that if France were to move to the Isles for whatever reason, they would always objectively have a weaker navy than England due to the lack of navy NIs(assuming equal forces), even though they would really have the same general strategy when it comes to war (navynavynavy).


He's saying weaker in a relative sense, to England. I guess what he's complaining about is the objective bonuses each nation gets regardless of where it may move in the future.

 

[unmerged(584823)]

Think you misunderstood my post

Yes I did, scuse me. But I think you misunderstood Deama too for the reason Felicity explains.

 

[asamy]

If you play as England in ck2, and manage to take some chuck of holdings and provnices in Europe, but just before the end, you manage to lose all the provnices in England(invasion, revolt), you will start with navy ideas in EUIV even if you don't even own a single province with a port (hypothetical). But after all, most of the Europe has its own nationl ideas, expect for South east Europe, Ireland, Brittany and some other minor/non important parts, so I don't see where is the problem here. If you don't like it, mod it, or they are going to release this as a DLC (which would be stupid).

 

[Belissarius]

Could it be possible, that at game start there was an event, that asks player if he would like to steer his country to some special direction? Like specialize in military, navy, trading, diplomacy, colonizing or just use current NIs? Those don't need to be as good as those real specialized NIs, but rather lesser versions of those. Like if I'd like to be a colonizing Norway, I'd get similar to Portugal NIs, except maybe +15% colonial range and +10% colonial growth. We could take Prussia as army, England as navy, Venice as trading and Austria as diplomacy templates. Just lower those bonuses somewhat, and player could steer his country to do whatever he wishes being very good in the area he chose. Not the best, but better than most.

I swear people must not understand how country based national ideas work. because you already get to make this choice every time you play. You choose which Idea trees your nation will focus one.

The country based national ideas can't be purchased they are given free at a rate of 1 national Idea for every three ideas purchased from the idea trees. It is these idea trees that represent your focused direction which you asked to be able to do.

The country based National Ideas are simply a set of beliefs and solutions to governance that a country used historically. It is design to ad flavour to nationas and to give nations that performed well historically an added advantage.

Nothing in the national idea system prevents you from succeeding in any area be it trade, naval, Land power, colonization ect. Simply pick your Idea trees to fit your strategy and if your country based national ideas don't complement you strategy don't sweat it because the ideas trees you pick will give you the tools you need for victory.

 

[Belissarius]

I swear that main thing driving this thread is players hating to see the Ai get any kind of one upmanship on them. its why I suspect most players play on normal as neither the player nor the Ai gets any bonuses/penalties.

For myself I want to see Venice be a trade power PERIOD regardless if I play them or not. And I want them to be a threat to trade for any player until they are wiped out. Their national ideas help them do so. I also think that once you eliminate Venice and you are focusing on being a trade power you will be the best trade power in the region at least so who cares if you don't have the best bonuses to trade. You can over come that by having a better trade strategy. And if your trade strategy fails simply invade and demand 50% of their trade power and work on a strategy of destroying them in a different way.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

I swear that main thing driving this thread is players hating to see the Ai get any kind of one upmanship on them. its why I suspect most players play on normal as neither the player nor the Ai gets any bonuses/penalties.

For myself I want to see Venice be a trade power PERIOD regardless if I play them or not. And I want them to be a threat to trade for any player until they are wiped out. Their national ideas help them do so. I also think that once you eliminate Venice and you are focusing on being a trade power you will be the best trade power in the region at least so who cares if you don't have the best bonuses to trade. You can over come that by having a better trade strategy. And if your trade strategy fails simply invade and demand 50% of their trade power and work on a strategy of destroying them in a different way.

I think the issue is more about the inflexibility of the NIs rather then any one nation having any real advantage over another.

 

[airpirate]

Can we please stop with the examples that either won't or shouldn't happen? I don't care if the game doesn't model what would happen if France took over England and got rid of all it's continental holdings, because that just should not happen unless a player wants to do it for funzies. The game does not need to perfectly model everything the player wants to do for funzies.

With that said, if the player succeeds as Serbia or Bosnia and takes over the Balkans, it would be nice if they got a decision to form a cultural union that has some unique NIs. Same kind of thing if an English player takes over France, maybe add a Dual-Monarchy tag that acts like a cross between France and Britain.