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TheDarkMaster

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For a "random" nation to split off from a larger body requires significant internal or external forces. If it is external then the people who forced the nation to split off might not want to see another Prussia or Genoa/Venice forming. In fact it would be a bloody safe bet as they are the ones trying to reduce the power of the larger nation. Don't you think they would do everything they can to influence things so the people who gain power have different beliefs then the host nation?

If the nation splits off the larger nation from internal pressure then its blindingly obvious that they DONT like the approaches that were being used that is why they broke away in the first place so it makes perfect sense for them to NOT have the same ideas because they were unhappy with things under these ideas.
You're missing the point again. I'm talking about converted games where nations are identical to a historic nation in every single way, other then having a different name. Or maybe one area historically unified much sooner, but remained split during a CK2 game. That split nation then unifies almost immediately after loading it up in EU4, but remains with generic ideas because that name it had at game start wasn't England, or Castile, or Denmark. Instead it was Wessex, or Leon, or Skane. With the current system, it seems like it is very likely that a good 60-70% of nations that get converted will be using the generic idea sets even though there are perfectly logical sets for them to use instead in the form of the nation that would exist where they are, or nearby nations that are very similar to them. Now I very much hope that this is not the case, but it is my main concern with the generic ideas right now.
 

Belissarius

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You're missing the point again. I'm talking about converted games where nations are identical to a historic nation in every single way, other then having a different name. Or maybe one area historically unified much sooner, but remained split during a CK2 game. That split nation then unifies almost immediately after loading it up in EU4, but remains with generic ideas because that name it had at game start wasn't England, or Castile, or Denmark. Instead it was Wessex, or Leon, or Skane. With the current system, it seems like it is very likely that a good 60-70% of nations that get converted will be using the generic idea sets even though there are perfectly logical sets for them to use instead in the form of the nation that would exist where they are, or nearby nations that are very similar to them. Now I very much hope that this is not the case, but it is my main concern with the generic ideas right now.

That is a concern for the converter which is developed by the CK2 team and not a concern for the EU4 team.
 

calvinhobbeslik

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Does Naples have unique NI or is it generic (I hope not!)?

They have their own ideas. From their dev diary (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...diary-37-Aragon-Naples-and-Korea&p=15710873):

National Ideas
Naples starts with a 25% bonus to National Spy Defence and 5% faster recovery to Navy Morale.
Found the Academy of Naples: Yearly Prestige +1: Neapolitan support of arts and literature was central to the royal family’s conception of itself.
Consolidate the Royal Domain: National Tax Modifier +10%: Southern Italy may not be as divided as the city states in the north, but only because the king works hard to keep his domain united.
Encourage City Living: Stability Cost Modifier -20%: Naples rivals Rome and Florence in size, and by bringing more peasants to the towns, you can promote trade and crafts.
Expand the Arsenal: Galley Cost -25%: The Neapolitan Arsenal isn’t as awesome as the one in Venice, but with some expansion, it could make the fleet of Naples rival all shopkeeper nations.
City of Artists: Yearly Legitimacy +1: With sculpture workshops and multiple art academies, the Muses themselves sing of how divinely inspired the royal line of Naples is.
Suppress Banditry: Trade Efficiency +5%: The wealth of Naples encourages a few people to turn away from the law. By keeping this criminal element under control, the trade can continue uninterrupted and increase their wealth.
Refurbish the University of Royal Studies: Technology Cost -5%: The medieval seat of learning in Naples went through many periods of decline over its centuries of existence. Renewed attention by monarchs led to cultural flowering in the kingdom.
When Naples has all their ideas they also get a 1% reduction in the rate of Naval Tradition decay. Naples will be a strong naval power, but is otherwise well balanced in its attributes.
 

Belissarius

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Does Naples have unique NI or is it generic (I hope not!)?

Also there is a wiki that shows a list of 33 different National Ideas most are for individual nations but some represent groups of nations

http://eu4wiki.com/National_ideas_by_country

It is by no means comprehensive, ie it doesn't include all the country based NIs but it does have some decent information.

Be aware that information here is from multiple sources and some of these sources could represent info that is old. Ie the numbers might have been tweaked as the game is still being worked on.
 

Meneth

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Also there is a wiki that shows a list of 33 different National Ideas most are for individual nations but some represent groups of nations

http://eu4wiki.com/National_ideas_by_country

It is by no means comprehensive, ie it doesn't include all the country based NIs but it does have some decent information.

Be aware that information here is from multiple sources and some of these sources could represent info that is old. Ie the numbers might have been tweaked as the game is still being worked on.
Yeah, all of that is from the dev diaries. To my knowledge every NI mentioned in the dev diaries is included.
 

Tikinaattori

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Could it be possible, that at game start there was an event, that asks player if he would like to steer his country to some special direction? Like specialize in military, navy, trading, diplomacy, colonizing or just use current NIs? Those don't need to be as good as those real specialized NIs, but rather lesser versions of those. Like if I'd like to be a colonizing Norway, I'd get similar to Portugal NIs, except maybe +15% colonial range and +10% colonial growth. We could take Prussia as army, England as navy, Venice as trading and Austria as diplomacy templates. Just lower those bonuses somewhat, and player could steer his country to do whatever he wishes being very good in the area he chose. Not the best, but better than most.
 

TheDarkMaster

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Could it be possible, that at game start there was an event, that asks player if he would like to steer his country to some special direction? Like specialize in military, navy, trading, diplomacy, colonizing or just use current NIs? Those don't need to be as good as those real specialized NIs, but rather lesser versions of those. Like if I'd like to be a colonizing Norway, I'd get similar to Portugal NIs, except maybe +15% colonial range and +10% colonial growth. We could take Prussia as army, England as navy, Venice as trading and Austria as diplomacy templates. Just lower those bonuses somewhat, and player could steer his country to do whatever he wishes being very good in the area he chose. Not the best, but better than most.
Maybe something where we can choose which NI set to use at game start? Or at least have a set of possible generic idea sets to choose from when playing generic nations?
 

Te. Kenzo

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added it now ;)

To made your work more easy:

Ethiopia Ideas

Starts with +20% manpower and -20% land attrition.

Solomonid Claim: +1% Prestige
Nagusa Negast: +25% Heir Chance
Hostile Borders: +20% Defensiveness
Diplomatic Demeanor: +2 Diplomatic Reputation
The Ark of the Covenant: +1% Missionary Strength & -10% Stability Cost.
Expansionist Policy: -20% Core Creation
Reformed Armies: +10% Discipline

And with all ideas, they get +1 yearly legitimacy.
 

Daema

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I think NI sets are a pretty lazy way to model national strengths tbh. For example, England wasn't a naval power for any reason other than being on an island with weak neighbours and a large coastline. A more sensible way to model that would be to have a triggered modifier that applied to any island nation with a large coastline.
 

Cymsdale

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I think NI sets are a pretty lazy way to model national strengths tbh. For example, England wasn't a naval power for any reason other than being on an island with weak neighbours and a large coastline. A more sensible way to model that would be to have a triggered modifier that applied to any island nation with a large coastline.

The most sensible way would be to not have national idea groups at all, and simply code nations to prioritize different idea sets based on their history (like GB picking naval).

However, that would be BORING.

The national idea groups add a nice bit of flavor and encourage players to try different nations. The bonuses they provide are just icing, and I think too many are really overplaying how much of an impact that will have.
 

Dutchling

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I think NI sets are a pretty lazy way to model national strengths tbh. For example, England wasn't a naval power for any reason other than being on an island with weak neighbours and a large coastline. A more sensible way to model that would be to have a triggered modifier that applied to any island nation with a large coastline.
NI sets do add a lot more replay value than your idea though.
 

Daema

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NI sets do add a lot more replay value than your idea though.

I disagree. It seems more like they force you to play certain countries if you want to (effectively) play a certain way, and conversely force you to play a certain way depending on the country you're playing.

The alternative is being able to take any nation and play how you want to play, which, imo, has a lot more replay value.
 

Cymsdale

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I disagree. It seems more like they force you to play certain countries if you want to (effectively) play a certain way, and conversely force you to play a certain way depending on the country you're playing.

The alternative is being able to take any nation and play how you want to play, which, imo, has a lot more replay value.

Once again. You are overplaying how much of an effect the national ideas have.

You want to play France as a navy power? You can do that by picking the appropriate idea groups. You're not going to be "ineffective" just because you don't have Great Britain's national ideas.
 

Te. Kenzo

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Also there is a wiki that shows a list of 33 different National Ideas most are for individual nations but some represent groups of nations

http://eu4wiki.com/National_ideas_by_country

It is by no means comprehensive, ie it doesn't include all the country based NIs but it does have some decent information.

Be aware that information here is from multiple sources and some of these sources could represent info that is old. Ie the numbers might have been tweaked as the game is still being worked on.

I done a research and the missing countries that I have foundare: Ethiopia, Ayutthaya, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Netherlands, Mughals (refers to the fact that they have the same idea of the timurids), Muscovy (refer to the fact that hey have the same idea of Russia), Norway, Saxony, Vijayanagar.

The idea of this nation can be found in the wiki
 

Daema

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Once again. You are overplaying how much of an effect the national ideas have.

You want to play France as a navy power? You can do that by picking the appropriate idea groups. You're not going to be "ineffective" just because you don't have Great Britain's national ideas.
I can't say whether I'm overplaying it as I haven't played the game. Have you?

It's not a very good defense either way; the bonuses have been implemented, obviously will have some effect (large or small is irrelevant), and so I'm discussing how they have been implemented.

These bonuses should be situational, as they were historically, rather than pre-determined. If I take France, move it to Britain and discard my continental holdings, then I will be in the same situation as England, yet it has been arbitrarily decided that my navy will be weaker. I'm questioning the logic behind that.