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Jazumir

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Yeah, axe, i´d love you, too, if you just weren´t so kiss-assy and a bit more on topic. ;P

kidding -- obviously. thx.

But i do think that posts here need to have some ontopic content so i´ll say: I expect that in HoI4, it will be exceptional not to see regions with a central province holding what is valueable, surounded by a layer of provinces that mark its directional borders. The Sudetenland can not be hammered in that way, obviously. Neither can the Ruhr, probably. But by and large, i expect to see this pattern.
 

Axe99

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Yeah, axe, i´d love you, too, if you just weren´t so kiss-assy and a bit more on topic. ;P

kidding -- obviously. thx.

Sorry, I wanted to respond, but didn't have anything on-topic to respond with. However, you've helped me out with that with your follow up post ;). On the by, I'm just trying to give credit where it's due - deffo not trying to 'suck up' - afaik, I don't have anything to gain from showing appreciation :). I'm also well aware I'm a minnow when it comes to these topics - I come here to learn, not to teach, and at best my posts are just throwing ideas around :).

But i do think that posts here need to have some ontopic content so i´ll say: I expect that in HoI4, it will be exceptional not to see regions with a central province holding what is valueable, surounded by a layer of provinces that mark its directional borders. The Sudetenland can not be hammered in that way, obviously. Neither can the Ruhr, probably. But by and large, i expect to see this pattern.

I'm not so sure about this - my impression is that the regions will collectively hold whatever resources they do, and that forts can be in whichever provinces they're put. I also vaguely recall (brief break to trot off to the map DD and un-vague the recollection....) that provinces aren't necessarily shaped like that (juicy, cream-filled centre surrounded by barbed-wire outsides), so that kind of approach may not be what they have in mind. For example, here's the North Africa screenshot:

attachment.php


To fortify Tobruk, you'd just fortify the province of Tobruk (which was decently fortified for a port in that neck of the woods), rather than the provinces around Tobruk.

Which makes me think that while some kind of directional fortification thing may be a minor improvement, it's probably a detail too far, as per Potski's post, many fortifications were designed to be relatively flexible in terms of direction they were defending in.
 

Jazumir

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Yeah, it´s really not so much about forts - more like infra, for example. How do you get directional rail-likes? By defining borders they connect through. Those borders are just blown up to province size, to accomodate troops, also. It´s like every HoI2 province had each of its borders defined as another province.
 

Ibn_Solmyr

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What's really stupid is making statements like this, when you don't know anything about history, beyond a bare understanding of the Maginot Line. Fortresses existed as strong points of defence, usually with all round cover, throughout history. And even in the era of "modern" warfare played an important role.



This is from the US military history of the Lorraine Campaign under 3rd Army in late 1944. A little history background for you. Metz is in the Alsace-Lorraine region, and was annexed by Germany after the 1870 Franco-Prussian War. So in 1902 the fort was first built by Germany. I'm not sure if the fort was fought over in the First World War, but potentially this fort and many others in the area covered by the Western Front could have been defended by one side, captured and then defended by the other side with the attacks coming from the opposite direction.

After WWI, Germany had to return Alsace-Lorraine to France, and the French further developed the fort, and defended it in 1940. The whole region was again annexed by Germany after the Fall of France, and they re-occupied the fort they originally built. Of no importance until they were defeated in Normandy and their forces fled from France in disarray. Then the fort, and others like it, became important to holdup the Allied advance while they regrouped shattered divisions and strengthened defences along the Rhine.

Fort Driant was attacked in late September 1944 by US forces, who withdrew after two weeks, without capturing the fort. It was the first defeat that Patton's army suffered since landing in France. The following account of the first day gives an indication of the difficulties they were going to face:



The account of the combat in Driant is very reminiscent of the accounts of the Battle of Verdun in WWI. Developments in technology over the intervening 30 years made little difference, and victory came down to close combat in underground passages. The US weren't prepared to sustain the losses that both France and Germany suffered at Verdun, and withdrew.

Fort Driant wasn't a single fort, but part of a series of forts surrounding the city of Metz. Taken as a whole they were meant to provide an entire fortified area. There was no continuous tunnels, trenches, barbed wire etc linking the forts together to form a "line". This wasn't necessary. But the artillery from one fort could be brought to bear on attackers around another fort, and the forts were close enough and positioned in such a way to restrict manoeuvre so that a force couldn't easily surround and attack each fort in isolation.

These remained important even in a world with mobile forces and air power, when the stronghold had a strategic position that wasn't easily by-passed because of rivers and hills, and cities like Metz were located on main roads and railways.

And Metz also wasn't a single fortified city, but part of a number of similarly fortified cities in the region, like Verdun and Nancy - that had been the subject of conflict for many centuries. They were the fore-runner of the Maginot Line, as a defensive system to defend the region, and as mentioned to defend France at certain times, and Germany at others. It wasn't stupidity that made successive governments and military leaders adopt an all-round defense of the fortifications, but to prevent attackers being able to simply envelop the cities and attack from "the rear", even though they knew that if the lost the city completely then the forts could be used against them in the future.

So - nonsense that all fortifications must be a "line" along the border of a province, and can only possibly be used to defend in one direction and therefore by one country. In fact, those sort of defences on their own would have been stupid. Any penetration of the "line" would mean the whole defenses would collapse. The French planners who built the Maginot Line were not so stupid, they incorporated some measure of all-round defence in the main line, defences in depth and strongholds in the rear.

In my opinion, most forts in HOI represent the fortified cities/towns, and correctly represent these. Only the Maginot Line itself causes significant issues for gameplay. The Event which reduces the forts level once France is defeated adequately deals with this. Germany can use Maginot to provide some defence, but would have to invest alot of IC to make it back to the level of 1940 but facing the opposite way.

Edit: Sorry, also meant to mention. Metz wasn't by any means unique. The campaign map of France at the start of Sept 1944 shows the Allies controlling nearly all northern France, and the Rhone valley from Marseilles nearly to Lyon. But a very long way behind the front lines, Germany still controlled Brest, Lorient, St. Nazaire and Le Havre. All four port cities had been fortified to protect them from attack from inland, as well as from amphibious assault. The Allies found overcoming the fortifications at Brest very difficult (rather like the similar problems Germany had taking Tobruk a couple of years earlier). They had to divert alot of forces and supplies to the battle, and decided to bypass the other ports, leaving small forces behind to contain the German garrisons.

Forts do need work, but not to make them directional, but make them more significant. I couldn't consistently simulate the UK 8th Army holding up Rommel at El Alamein, nor have a city like Tobruk hold out for any length of time. Only a Maginot level of fortifications seemed to make any noticeable difference. And forts and digging in bonus need to use supplies, not IC (factories), and the lower levels be quicker to build.

Well, nice to see some of our British people friends who know the french history ! ;) I would like to know the British one like this ! :)

So what do you think of my proposal system ? (post #27)
 

blue_yonder

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even the Maginot line had 360° capabilities when it was obviously built in only one direction.

exactly. those who consider directionality a trivial detail presumably play ger or su or uk or whatever. but I invariably play france, and every game in hoi3 meant I was saddled with a maginot specifically designed to kill the country which made it. A breakthrough at great cost by the hun should have been countered by an assault up the smooth backside of the Ardenne on equal terms, but no, my troops had to face the same formidable battery of mines and guns and concrete and wire as the enemy had just gone through. It's barking mad, and I hope it's gone.
 

potski

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Well, nice to see some of our British people friends who know the french history ! ;) I would like to know the British one like this ! :)

So what do you think of my proposal system ? (post #27)

Yes, I know a little French history :). If you have an interest in military history in Europe, then you have to pickup a bit about that region. Even back to Roman times, and Caesar's campaigns. I heard Paradox have a new developer DevusRomanisDuo.

And living within the Roman militarized zone in the north of England. What is famous is Hadrian's Wall, but what is not well known is the depths of the defense. Up to 50 miles was largely depopulated and included many forts, such as Binchester and Lanchester with garrisons ready to act as a mobile reserve to march to any point on the wall that was attacked, or to provide strong points if enemy forces broke through the wall. Then ultimately to the south of this zone were the fortified cities of York and Chester.
 

jju_57

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Fort Driant was attacked in late September 1944 by US forces, who withdrew after two weeks, without capturing the fort. It was the first defeat that Patton's army suffered since landing in France. The following account of the first day gives an indication of the difficulties they were going to face:

Except you left out two very important points that Patton himself made. First off he didn't even have to attack the fort. It could have easily been bypassed. Secondly, his attack was extremely weak. The forces assigned to the attack were too small and not enough tank support/artillery support was allocated to the battle. Patton said it was his mistake to push the attack.

And what were the end results? I think the US suffered under 100 dead attacking Fort Driant. In the end the fort was bypassed and surrendered without another shot being fired. Patton once said "Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man." All he had to do was follow his own advice and bypass the place.