Direction of Land Fortifications

[WWIINERD]

I know that there is nothing on this in the Dev Diaries, but please tell me that somewhere, at some time, the developers have indicated that they to are bothered by the fact that in HOI3 there was no designation for the directional facing of land fortifications. It makes no sense for the Germans to be able to utilize Maginot Line defense works to defend against Allied forces advancing from the West.

I propose that when you build a land fortification, you should have to declare which direction the fortifications will face (which borders of the province will receive the defense bonuses).

Any concurrence or other proposals out there?

 

[Big Nev]

I know that there is nothing on this in the Dev Diaries, but please tell me that somewhere, at some time, the developers have indicated that they to are bothered by the fact that in HOI3 there was no designation for the directional facing of land fortifications. It makes no sense for the Germans to be able to utilize Maginot Line defense works to defend against Allied forces advancing from the West.

I propose that when you build a land fortification, you should have to declare which direction the fortifications will face (which borders of the province will receive the defense bonuses).

Any concurrence or other proposals out there?

I don't think we've seen anything that deals with the facing of fortifications.

But yes, I concur. Which way your guns are pointing is massively important and can (note, I said can) be hugely restrictive. The Maginot line being a good case in point, the defences of Singapore being urban myth.

How to deal with this?

M a a a y y y b e e e we could be required to nominate a facing/border when we start building them. 360° could be a facing and you'd only get a fraction of the effect.

It suddenly struck me that there's a HUGE difference between "fortifications" and emplaced artillery.

Gibraltar, for example, had both.

Sadly, I think all this is already "in" and we're unlikely to see any significant changes to the game from suggestions which come-up this late in developement.

BUT

I think I remember this topic being brought-up years ago so... here's hoping

 

[WWIINERD]

I don't think we've seen anything that deals with the facing of fortifications....

Sadly, I think all this is already "in" and we're unlikely to see any significant changes to the game from suggestions which come-up this late in developement.

Yeah, if they haven't planned to deal with it in the initial release, it probably won't be at this point. But it seems like something that would be fairly simple to address in a future expansion.

You could have 360 degree fortification if you were willing to build fortifications for each border of a province.

 

[Victor Cortez]

It would work like rivers, which now are between provinces. Maybe it's still doable

 

[Big Nev]

It would work like rivers, which now are between provinces. Maybe it's still doable

I missed that!

If they've gone to the trouble of defining province borders like that, I have high hopes that fortifications will also be placed/placeable along province borders. It wouldn't quite be "facing" as such (unless they've really gone to the trouble of doing it right) but a big improvement on the omnidirectional fortresses we all know & love don't really like very much.

 

[unmerged(131989)]

I'm unsure about this. Whilst I appreciate the historical relevance in a number of circumstances (e.g. Maginot line), in the game land fortifications will have to be a 'one size fits all' concept, and directional fortifications isn't always the case. Better to keep things simple, in my opinion.

If it's doable, great; if not, I'm not too bothered.

 

[WWIINERD]

I'm unsure about this. Whilst I appreciate the historical relevance in a number of circumstances (e.g. Maginot line), in the game land fortifications will have to be a 'one size fits all' concept, and directional fortifications isn't always the case. Better to keep things simple, in my opinion.

If it's doable, great; if not, I'm not too bothered.

Some nations (i.e. France - Maginot Line and Greece - Metaxas Line) put huge investments into land fortifications. Germany also invested a great deal in the Atlantic Wall. Fortunately, coastal fortifications are what they are and the coast or "border" that they effect is naturally limited and defined. It just seems to me like low-hanging fruit where you could get a nice return on realism for very little design alteration to have a border designated upon commissioning of the construction.

 

[WWIINERD]

I missed that!

If they've gone to the trouble of defining province borders like that, I have high hopes that fortifications will also be placed/placeable along province borders. It wouldn't quite be "facing" as such (unless they've really gone to the trouble of doing it right) but a big improvement on the omnidirectional fortresses we all know & love don't really like very much.

I agree, this would be simpler and better than declaring a directional facing. Especially since fortifications involved defenses that would not be directional in nature such as land mines and dragon's teeth.

Maybe the defensive effect could be full if attacking against the province where the defensive barrier was constructed, and limited if attacking from the original province (thus indicating the lasting effect of the mines and dragon's teeth).

 

[Alpha2518]

I know that there is nothing on this in the Dev Diaries, but please tell me that somewhere, at some time, the developers have indicated that they to are bothered by the fact that in HOI3 there was no designation for the directional facing of land fortifications. It makes no sense for the Germans to be able to utilize Maginot Line defense works to defend against Allied forces advancing from the West.

I propose that when you build a land fortification, you should have to declare which direction the fortifications will face (which borders of the province will receive the defense bonuses).

Any concurrence or other proposals out there?

Yes althought this doesn't have you give the direction that the forts face. But when you take over the maginot or sudaten defenses they are all reduced by 1 by an event that Germany recieves. Problem solves as far as the forts being used by germany is concerned.

 

[SpermCube]

Why not? the Sevastopol fortress was meant for use against naval targets but was only ever used against the German land invasion.

 

[Jakalak]

It would also make the map look very pretty with neat, clearly defined forts hugging the edge of the province~

I also seem to remember this being brought up earlier, however.

 

[WWIINERD]

I also seem to remember this being brought up earlier, however.

I'm sure it has been. I just hope that it make it into HOI4 somehow. I just got back into playing HOI3 and was reminded of how "cheesy" it seems to build land fortifications in a province and have them work the way that they do.

I agree, if they did this right, it could make the map look really nice instead of cluttering it up with the hedgehog symbols in HOI3.

 

[Axe99]

This be a very good idea, but it'd add 'clicks'. For example, say you want to build forts (used as shorthand here for fortifications) along the French/German border, you've now got to build 2-3 times as many, because you have to cover all the province-province border permutations. If it was possible to come up with some kind of way to 'paint' the border you want fortified, specifying direction and fort size, that'd be perfect (this isn't my idea, it comes from another fortifications thread from early last year that Porkmann linked a whiles back - I'd link, but I can't remember the thread name, and searching for threads without knowing the exact name is afaik pretty painful).

Direction could be pretty simple - just have it as defending outwards, so if as the French you build a fort on the French-German border, it only defends 'away' from the province border it's actually built on (so it stops troops going from Germany into France, but not France into Germany - to stop that, you need to build a corresponding fort on the German side of the border). You want to build an uber-fort defending in every which direction then you need forts on all the borders of a province - but once in the province itself, there'd be no penalty attacking into a neighbouring province unless they also had forts.

Display could be a bit finickity as well, but if you had some kind of barbed-wire and tank-trap 'line' that followed the border, and was distinctly on one side of the border, that'd do the job.

There'd be a need to balance a bit for cost (and imo upkeep), but that'd probably be the easiest problem to solve.

 

[Vlad_Constantin]

I think it can also be solved with simple events. When the Germans conquer the Maginot line, they get an event which removes the forts from the map. When the French recapture the said provinces they get an event called Restore the forts or something, and they get the Maginot line back (non functional at the beginning, as in needing repairs to simulate de decomissioned state). Same for the West Wall. The trick is making this work for other forts that players build. It would require some sort of autogenerating event when a fort is being build...

 

[AradoX]

If it was possible to come up with some kind of way to 'paint' the border you want fortified, specifying direction and fort size, that'd be perfect (this isn't my idea, it comes from another fortifications thread from early last year that Porkmann linked a whiles back.
...
Direction could be pretty simple - just have it as defending outwards

+1 for this

Something like what Podcat is doing here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxGNpPz_W2A#t=291

 

[ray4ever]

Honestly I think this proposal is adding uneccessary micromanagement to the game without adding anything "fun" to it. It seems just to tedious to always define the facing direction when you build a fortification.

 

[Vlad_Constantin]

It seems just to tedious to always define the facing direction when you build a fortification.

How often do you build fortifications that is so time consuming? I think most players would have to do this once or twice per campaign.

 

[pontifex_medius]

An interesting proposal, but I imagine it would be a nightmare to code sufficiently. The mere direction (north/east/south/west) would be impractical since many provinces will border to at least two directions. Consequently, you would have to choose which specific province the fort would be faced to. I assume that this means that each and every fort would have to be coded separately. Also, this is not realistic, as a fort facing province A would not give a defensive bonus to an assault from B, even if both A and B are bordering west to the defending C. It would indeed be a nice solution, but I'd rather keep it simple than suffering hundreds of bugs and the micromanagement from constructing a gazillion forts.

 

[vonhavoc]

If it was possible to come up with some kind of way to 'paint' the border you want fortified, specifying direction and fort size, that'd be perfect (this isn't my idea, it comes from another fortifications thread from early last year that Porkmann linked a whiles back - I'd link, but I can't remember the thread name, and searching for threads without knowing the exact name is afaik pretty painful).

Wouldn't an easyish solution be, when choosing to build a fort in a province to indicate (click) on the map which neighboring provinces the fort is facing. Pretty simple, no need for any real painting (harder to detect) along the borders or such.

An interesting proposal, but I imagine it would be a nightmare to code sufficiently. The mere direction (north/east/south/west) would be impractical since many provinces will border to at least two directions. Consequently, you would have to choose which specific province the fort would be faced to. I assume that this means that each and every fort would have to be coded separately. Also, this is not realistic, as a fort facing province A would not give a defensive bonus to an assault from B, even if both A and B are bordering west to the defending C. It would indeed be a nice solution, but I'd rather keep it simple than suffering hundreds of bugs and the micromanagement from constructing a gazillion forts.

I think my idea is more than simple enough to be implemented rather easily with current province system. No need for any ambiguous directions, after all, the attack WILL come from a neighboring province. Naturally fortifications directed at multiple provinces would be more expensive.

 

[Razor]

Oh boy! Do I concur I've longed for that since HOI I.