diplomatic ideas: -20% province warcost

[atwix]

-20% province warscore cost: I suppose this lowers the diplo point cost for provinces by 20%, right?

....It doesn't make the provinces cost 20% less warscore, right? Or does it?

 

[Aries666]

I have not actually checked (I havent taken diplo in a 1.8 game yet) but my assumption would have been that it means a province that would have cost 10%WS will now cost 8%WS.

 

[Incompetent]

-20% province warscore cost: I suppose this lowers the diplo point cost for provinces by 20%, right?

....It doesn't make the provinces cost 20% less warscore, right? Or does it?

It says 20% reduced *warscore* cost.

The bonus on Influence, on the other hand, reduces the diplo point cost of peace treaties. ('Justified' demands never cost any diplo points.)

 

[atwix]

It says 20% reduced *warscore* cost.

The bonus on influence on the other hand reduces the diplo point cost of peace treaties. ('Justified' demands never cost any diplo points.)

if you combine this with expansion CB, doesn't it make this a real OP part of diplomatic idea group?

If it works like -%coring cost bonuses that means you get -50% and -20% bonus for a total of -70% warscore cost. Combined with lower warcost on high autonomy countries, it could mean that countries who take both expansion and diplo ideas can full annex real big countries in asia in one go.. If Russia would take this combo, it would give surprising results i bet.

If this is the case, well, i'm gonna try it. Administrative+diplomatic+expansion as Ottomans or Italy or so would get ...seriously OP.

 

[ahyangyi]

Hmm, that sounds fun. Since your expansion is also limited by OE, vassal limit, the willingness of your vassal to eat a province etc, I guess it's WAD.

 

[Clownie]

If it works like -%coring cost bonuses that means you get -50% and -20% bonus for a total of -70% warscore cost.

I believe it's multiplicative, not cumulative.

 

[atwix]

I believe it's multiplicative, not cumulative.

well i thought coring cost reduction was multiplicative aswell, and it turned out to be cumulative aswell...

 

[Aries666]

Stacking for reduced WS cost will mean running very high OE though, so unless you also stack for reduced coring cost you will likely bottleneck on adm and coring times will be longer meaning staying at high OE for longer. I guess if you are sufficiently strong you can handle it though or if you throw in humanism too to manage unrest could be an interesting game.

 

[Denkt]

Stacking for reduced WS cost will mean running very high OE though, so unless you also stack for reduced coring cost you will likely bottleneck on adm and coring times will be longer meaning staying at high OE for longer. I guess if you are sufficiently strong you can handle it though or if you throw in humanism too to manage unrest could be an interesting game.

You have to use vassal to, give some of the land to you and some to the vassals and all of you will be fine.

 

[Less]

if you combine this with expansion CB, doesn't it make this a real OP part of diplomatic idea group?

If it works like -%coring cost bonuses that means you get -50% and -20% bonus for a total of -70% warscore cost. Combined with lower warcost on high autonomy countries, it could mean that countries who take both expansion and diplo ideas can full annex real big countries in asia in one go.. If Russia would take this combo, it would give surprising results i bet.

If this is the case, well, i'm gonna try it. Administrative+diplomatic+expansion as Ottomans or Italy or so would get ...seriously OP.

You can annex Ming in one war with enough modifiers (50% autonomy also lowers warscore cost by 50%, stacking additively with diplomatic and multiplicatively with the CB, for (1-(1-(50%+20%)) / 2)) = -85% warscore cost.

The only limit seems to be that provinces can't go below 1 WS each.

 

[ChildeR]

I believe it's multiplicative, not cumulative.

It's additive with some modifiers and multiplicative with some...

You can annex Ming in one war with enough modifiers (50% autonomy also lowers warscore cost by 50%, stacking additively with diplomatic and multiplicatively with the CB, for (1-(1-(50%+20%)) / 2)) = -85% warscore cost.

The only limit seems to be that provinces can't go below 1 WS each.

Autonomy and diplomatic ideas are multiplicative, but diplo and administrative efficiency add. Example, from current game province tooltip:

Province warscore cost 1%:

Base 5.0
Tax 2.0
Manpower 1.0
TP 0.2
Fort 0.4

LA -3.7
Size -1.0

Ideas -0.5
Administrative efficiency -0.5

I.e. sum the first few to get 8.6. Use that to calculate LA modifier (43.4% of 8.6 is 3.7) and presumably size reduction. Remove those and it's ~4, from which idea and admin are calculated (both 25%).

How it ends up being 1%, I have no idea

 

[Mztr44]

Like someone already filled in, it's a reduced warscore cost for provinces in the Diplomatic Ideas set. It's a really awesome bonus in my opinion. Since the amount of warscore you use to make a demand affects your truce times you can get shorter peace treaties in wars where you demand provinces. I believe it also lets you force religion and force vassalize larger nations since the total warscore needed to do so is based on the province warscore?

 

[atwix]

You can annex Ming in one war with enough modifiers (50% autonomy also lowers warscore cost by 50%, stacking additively with diplomatic and multiplicatively with the CB, for (1-(1-(50%+20%)) / 2)) = -85% warscore cost.

The only limit seems to be that provinces can't go below 1 WS each.

:blink:

Somehow this sounds as the way to go for russia...

-85% warscore and a theoretical softcap for -95£ coring cost...

Somehow i think i should retry my last nation on map attempt again. Devs said it is absolutely impossible now to core everything with one nation....

With expansion, administrative, diplomacy, influence, religious and humanism ideas it may be quite possible with ottomans or Italy. Westernised muscovy sounds eaisest though, since their manpower bonus +orthodox bonuses might be handy.

I wonder, is there way to make a country increase its autonomy? when does ai do this? When you make 'm bankrupt maybe?

 

[Less]

Yeah, Bankrupt gives +0.2% autonomy a month, and peasant rebels enforcing demands gives +20%. If you bankrupt Ming and drive up WE during a war they will quickly get 100% autonomy at which point all provinces are 1% warscore regardless of everything else.

It's kind of OP, especially because Autonomy immediately goes down a lot when you annex and release or let a vassal annex land. Not sure exactly how it works but the land doesn't remain useless for decades like you would expect.

For everyone that isn't a horde or ming with horrible min autonomy it's a bit less worthwhile since it takes a long time to pay off. Bankrupting is pretty hard without multiple wars and most nations that don't have the celestial empire penalties are unlikely to lose to rebels unless you sit around and force them to.

 

[Mztr44]

I wonder, is there way to make a country increase its autonomy? when does ai do this? When you make 'm bankrupt maybe?

A sucessful siege by peasants will increase that province's autonomy by 10. Ming has a nasty habit of falling into a rebellion death spiral in my 1.8 games. It will get Peasant rebellions followed by Ming Particularist rebels. Neither of which will tear the nation up into smaller portions like Shun/Zhou/Yi/Dali/Miao. But once it loses to too many peasant rebellions, it cannot recover. It wont make enough money to create a force large enough to defeat any rebels because of all the autonomy in it's provinces. So it will just have this constant wave of rebels sieging it's territory, while Ming uses it's force to unsiege them.

The AI doesn't appear to know how to use the raise autonomy button. I have never seen it do so in all the times i've checked new territory that I give to vassals.

 

[klingonadmiral]

Stacking for reduced WS cost will mean running very high OE though, so unless you also stack for reduced coring cost you will likely bottleneck on adm and coring times will be longer meaning staying at high OE for longer. I guess if you are sufficiently strong you can handle it though or if you throw in humanism too to manage unrest could be an interesting game.

Only somewhat. It is incredibly satisfying to completely break a country without taking like half it's territory, by draining it's wealth, manpower and prestige. Lower province WS cost allows for more other terms like ducats or breaking alliances.

 

[durvas]

:blink:

Somehow this sounds as the way to go for russia...

-85% warscore and a theoretical softcap for -95£ coring cost...

Somehow i think i should retry my last nation on map attempt again. Devs said it is absolutely impossible now to core everything with one nation....

With expansion, administrative, diplomacy, influence, religious and humanism ideas it may be quite possible with ottomans or Italy. Westernised muscovy sounds eaisest though, since their manpower bonus +orthodox bonuses might be handy.

I wonder, is there way to make a country increase its autonomy? when does ai do this? When you make 'm bankrupt maybe?

The diplomatic idea does not stack with modifiers from CBs or Admin Efficiency. It reduces the province cost by 20% before any other modifiers are applied so it lets you take effectively 25% more, regardless of what else you have. As for ways to increase autonomy, I would try supporting peasant rebels demands in a war. Also, it is probably possible to core everything, especially with the current HRE mechanics. Maybe not colonize every province, but core what is in 1444 it surely.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It gets to be overkill quickly, you wind up being able to get to 200% OE with 30% war score and then you realize maybe you should have invested into ideas that let you handle that better instead lol.

 

[Less]

At which point you realize you can switch occupations to your vassals and eat 500% OE divided between 5 nations.

Vassal feeding is just seriously awesome now. On my ranking of idea bonuses core creation cost went from #1 to deep in the "meh, whatever" part of the list.

 

[atwix]

somehow i get the idea i hit the nail on the head regarding serious OP blobbing tactics.

Take all warscore bonuses, get 5 nations that have humanism ans religious ideas, and feed 'm whole world with tactics discussed above?

Something like that?

I suspected from start 1.8 made game seriously unbalanced....