Diplomatic Hell

[Valerius]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I enjoy playing this game. But there are some things in it that drive me absolutely up the wall.

I'm playing the British in a multi-player game. Diplomatically, I've been extremely careful to keep certain countries solidly in the Democracy camp. Among these are Norway, Sweden, Greece (sadly, over run by the Axis), and Turkey. Turkey is nearly 100% in the Democracy camp, and is at a 92% war entry level. After the Germans and Italians conquered Greece, the Germans marched up to the Turkish border and asked for military access ... and the Turks GRANTED IT!!! In one fell swoop my entire Middle Eastern theatre has been outflanked, and there are now 23 (that I can see) German divisions marching on Iraq, Jeruselem, and the canal. With 34 Italian divisions on the other flank, I see no hope for holding Egypt.

This seems incredible to me. I can almost see a fascist Spain granting military access (although historically they did not), but a democratic Turkey!!! I was a little ticked when Switzerland granted military access to the Italians earlier in the game (whatever happened to strict Swiss neutrality?), but when Turkey did it I hit the roof!

Military access in this game is obviously far too easy to get. How many times can people think of countries granting military access other than to allies? And there should be huge negative modifiers for trying to get it from an "unfriendly" nation (i.e. of different political persuasion). And as far as I can tell, there is no way to counter it. I have no option at all to influence Turkey to rescind its decision. The only option I see is to ask Turkey to join the allies and declare war on the axis, which I have subsequently done, and they refuse. I assume this may be because there are German troops stationed on Turkish soil. So a Democracy-alligned Turkey with a 92% war entry level will now never join the allies, and the axis can do pretty much whatever they please in the Middle East. Wonderful.

Actually, as I have gone through and analyzed this, maybe this game isn't so enjoyable.

 

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Military Access

Valerius,

I have never played MP HOI, but I guess these are the kinds of things you should come to expect, especially when facing Axis players that are determined to avoid repeating history.

I agree that certain elements of this game are infuriating, weird diplomatic results being one of them.

However, the Germans marching through Turkey in 1940/41 was one of the great "what ifs" of history. Had they done so they would have caused the Allies the anguish you are now facing

So, no consolation to you I know - but perhaps this will be a learning curve for you in future games? :wacko:

On the other hand I suggest you look for any advantages that you can take from the Axis having long supply lines through Turkey back to Germany. Surely you can inderdict their supply routes with the Mediterranean fleet? I recall that Military Access does not allow supplies to be sent through the "host" country. This will cause the German armoured units to run out of oil & supplies. I know India etc now looks threatened, but if you can't have Iraq, Saudi & Kuwait then make sure that the Axis don't benefit from having them either!

I guess this also means you need to funnel NZ, Australian, South African & Canadian troops into Egypt ASAP, and make sure you thrash the Italians in the Mediterranean before the German units get too strong in that region.

Good luck.

Lozza12

 

[Valerius]

Thanks for your comments, Lozza. Yes, I am learning quite a bit in this game, and I'm a relative beginner playing against much more experienced German and Italian players. Particularly the Italian. One thing is absolutely certain: if you want the full feel of playing HOI, play it against other humans and not the AI. There is a HUGE difference.

You are right also in that my only hope now is to try and interdict supply lines, and get as many allied troops to Egypt as possible. My one advantage is that I've destroyed most of the German and Italian fleets, and all they have left are a few subs and a couple dozen transports. My one problem there, however, is a very large Italian airforce consisting almost entirely of naval bombers.

One other thing I thought of, and I would like your comments before I do it. What if I declare Iraq independent before the Germans cross the border. Would they then have to declare war seperately on Iraq, or would they already be at war with Iraq because Iraq was originally part of the Commonwealth? If they had to declare war it might raise the US war entry level.

I still, however, believe strongly in my comment that military access is far, far, far too easy to get.

 

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Thanks for your comments, Lozza. Yes, I am learning quite a bit in this game, and I'm a relative beginner playing against much more experienced German and Italian players. Particularly the Italian. One thing is absolutely certain: if you want the full feel of playing HOI, play it against other humans and not the AI. There is a HUGE difference.

You are right also in that my only hope now is to try and interdict supply lines, and get as many allied troops to Egypt as possible. My one advantage is that I've destroyed most of the German and Italian fleets, and all they have left are a few subs and a couple dozen transports. My one problem there, however, is a very large Italian airforce consisting almost entirely of naval bombers.

One other thing I thought of, and I would like your comments before I do it. What if I declare Iraq independent before the Germans cross the border. Would they then have to declare war seperately on Iraq, or would they already be at war with Iraq because Iraq was originally part of the Commonwealth? If they had to declare war it might raise the US war entry level.

I still, however, believe strongly in my comment that military access is far, far, far too easy to get.

Valerius,

OK, before I say any more I do just want to remind you I've never played MP HOI. Like all computer and board games there will be unique "paths to victory" for certain countries & I am *NOT* aware of any of these....

That said, I need to know how many human-controlled countries there are in your game as this will affect my thinking. UK will undoubtedly be the most difficult country to control cos you need eyes and ears alkl over the map!

Shall I PM you if you want ongoing help? I'm quite interested in MP HOI myself, but I don't know how I would co-ordinate playing time given that I'm from New Zealand (GMT +12)!

For starters you should be aware that Naval Bombers are one of the biggest "exploits" in the game. They are superb units and can decimate any naval force if you have 6-12 of the suckers. I use them extensively in my SP HOI games when playing UK, US, and Japan. I *DO* hope you have some as well?

My gut reaction is that you need Carriers in any large fleet that you move around containing about 4-5 fighter air units. These will interdict any naval bombers they send your way & should cause them to retreat. Equally you could set your fleets up off certain coastal areas (such as Tobruk) with Interceptor air units based on that coast, ready to interdict a naval bombing attack. This would limit your fleet movement though.

Out of interest, have you made full use of the British colonies? i.e. NZ, Australia, S Africa, Canada? You should share tech with these countries so at least their land units are as good as yours, and move them into garrison certain places. Because they all have poor Manpower supplies you should avoid using them for direct combat & use them instead on places like Malta, Gibraltar, Singapore and UK defence etc. This frees up your UK infantry to fight in Africa or Europe etc.

Also, in pre-war times have you created half a dozen resource stockpile islands in places like Bermuda and St. Johns? i.e. moved your surplus Rubber & Coal etc into 9999 stacks in these territories? This is very handy & you should do this.

Also be aware that escorts are a bit of a waste of time in 1.06c. They get sunk really easily & don't really seem to protect the resource convoys. If a Japanese, Italian or German fleet is sitting in a convoy sea zone, CANCEL the convoy ASAP or you will lose dozens of ships needlessly. This is the *PAIN* of playing as the UK with manually controlled convoys

Now, back to Iraq - I suspect Germany will just DOW Iraq if you do this. This will assist USA WE though. I honestly believe that fighting around Egypt is your best course of action. Yes its unfortunate & hugely inconvenient to have to fight cos of Turkey's MA agreement, but don't forget the Germans are on a timetable. They can only attack there until early 1941 when they have to pull back & prepare for Barbarossa. I suspect their plan is for German troops to make the breakthrough & Italian troops to follow up & hold the land and/or fight you in Kenya. Bear in mind it gets tough for the Italians at this point because the Allied units can really begin to cut off overextended Italian armies that far into Africa (I've suffered from this myself).

You may think your glorious fleet is a bit crap compared to the stacks of naval bombers facing you, but it does still give you mobility. If you really do get thrashed in Egypt, cut your losses pull out & strike back at a point of your choosing. Preferably some place like Suez, Kuwait or Mombasa. Get those pincer attacks working rather than always defending and you will really get some attacking bonuses. See Kanitatlan's AAR for the reasoning & logic...

Dude, I'm really keen to help. I live for this kind of stuff. Can I PM you?

Cheers,

Lozza12

 

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I know what you mean .. really! I played HOI1 not more than two days, as it was not handy enough(interface, user friendliness) , convoy managing was an absolute pain in the rear and an extremely complicated tech. system (what we call "Arab hair" in Turkish )

Now i'm playing HOI2 , most of the issues i mentioned above are simplified -Thank God, but diplomacy still crappy. This time, you never get an acceptance on any offer (unlike HOI1 ) I playing as GER, conquered half of the Soviet Union, occupied %70 of the victory point locations and yet they refuse to make a peace, make puppet.

It is ridiculous, it seems you have to go for annexation for each and every war which is exhausting.

Conclussion, Diplomacy is the heart of this game and yet Paradox people havent got it still. They couldnt fix it in HOI1 and obviously they wont in HOI2 either.

 

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It is common pratice in MP games to ban military access through neutral countries. HOI1 & 2 handles that part very bad, especially under AI control. So my suggestion is that next time you join a MP, make sure using MA is banned.

 

[Valerius]

It is common pratice in MP games to ban military access through neutral countries. HOI1 & 2 handles that part very bad, especially under AI control. So my suggestion is that next time you join a MP, make sure using MA is banned.

I knew it! This seemed to me to be one of those issues that makes the game more playable against the AI, but completely screws things up when you have humans on the other end of the stick. I wish I had a list of every "House Rule" common to multi-player games that I could take to my group and say, "Guys, this is the way it's done MP with the people who know." We already ban tech transfers other than between allies (or countries at war with the same enemy), resource trade between the same, huge build queues, and US war entry below 85. I think the neutral country rule needs to be added in our game, but what else is "common practice" in MP?

Is there a list somewhere of the common adjustments made for MP play? I would really like to know if there is.

Lozza, thanks again, and, yes, I would really like to carry on the conversation in PM mode if I can figure out how to do that. I've never done it before, so I'll have to work out the details. If I can work it out, I'll comment on all the points you raise in your last post.

Another thing: I know this doesn't have anything to do with diplomacy, but another thing that irritates me with the game, especially playing the Commonwealth, is that troop transports are nation-specific. In other words, Canadians will only load onto Canadian transports, Australians on Australian transports, etc. This, too, seems stupid to me. A transport is a transport is a transport, and it shouldn't matter the nationality as long as you're allied. I would see nothing wrong with Italian transports carrying German troops, as I'm sure happened with the Afrika Corps.

Lozza, I'll be in touch.

 

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I knew it! This seemed to me to be one of those issues that makes the game more playable against the AI, but completely screws things up when you have humans on the other end of the stick. I wish I had a list of every "House Rule" common to multi-player games that I could take to my group and say, "Guys, this is the way it's done MP with the people who know." We already ban tech transfers other than between allies (or countries at war with the same enemy), resource trade between the same, huge build queues, and US war entry below 85. I think the neutral country rule needs to be added in our game, but what else is "common practice" in MP?

Is there a list somewhere of the common adjustments made for MP play? I would really like to know if there is.

Lozza, thanks again, and, yes, I would really like to carry on the conversation in PM mode if I can figure out how to do that. I've never done it before, so I'll have to work out the details. If I can work it out, I'll comment on all the points you raise in your last post.

Another thing: I know this doesn't have anything to do with diplomacy, but another thing that irritates me with the game, especially playing the Commonwealth, is that troop transports are nation-specific. In other words, Canadians will only load onto Canadian transports, Australians on Australian transports, etc. This, too, seems stupid to me. A transport is a transport is a transport, and it shouldn't matter the nationality as long as you're allied. I would see nothing wrong with Italian transports carrying German troops, as I'm sure happened with the Afrika Corps.

Lozza, I'll be in touch.

Hey, excellent - I look forward to discussing this some more Checking through the icons here I can't see a "Personal Message" button, so at the risk of other folks spamming me just email me at laurencejenner2001@yahoo.co.nz

Now, it looks like you need to brush up on your management of the UK The easy way to make use of the Commonwealth nations is to send them Expeditionary forces of Transports. UK Transports come in convenient batches of 4 so just click on say Canada, go to Diplomacy screen & select "Send Exp Force". Now select say "1st Transport Fleet" and voila, the Canadians can load their army units on to that Transport fleet. Obviously you need Military Control of Canada to do this.

In my SP game as UK I have going at the moment I have the South Africans guarding the UK with 12 divs. Australia is guarding India, New Guinea, Malta & Gibraltar, while NZ is guarding Singapore with a UK Field Marshal (although NZ FM Freyburg is good with DD, LW traits). Canada is assisting me to kick the Italians out of Africa & invade Sicily with 18 divs.

A good self-imposed rule is to limit the size of the Commonwealth armies, otherwise they build like crazy! This allows them to retain some Manpower (for reinforcing damaged units), and cuts down on their supply consumption. For me, I limit the Canadians to 18 divs + some navy, Aussies to about 12 divs + navy, S Africa to about 12, and NZ to 6 divs. With tech assistance these armies can be as good as yours by 1939. Iraqi units can also be useful

Back to your MP game, it looks like you got the shit end of the stick with regards to allowing MA. The Allies seem to be the most hurt by this - as evidenced by German access through Turkey. How are your attempts going to fight back against the Jerries here?

You know, a good little counterattack you could make would be through southern France. It is often overlooked as a route into France, but of course you would need to deal with those pesky Italian naval bombers first.

Don't forget to introduce the Manpower Minister when he becomes available in 1940. This doubles your Manpower growth & enables the UK to *finally* get an army together. Given your limited Manpower supply & plentiful supplies of Oil I would suggest building the best quality army you can, rather than building screeds of Infantry. This means some Mountain units & loads of Mechanised units. I'd suggest an army of 36 Mech + Mountain units would give the Jerries food for thought.

Look forward to your email.

Lozza12


edit:
Valerius,

Duh! Personal Message icon is on the top right where it says "Personal Messages: 0" etc....the email address there is fine as it is my work addy. I will look at the yahoo over the weekend though to see if you sent anything.

Cheers,

Lozza12

 

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MP rukes aren't 100% identical from game to game, but a large part is. Wrt. things like asking MA I'm not sure we even mention it anymore because everyone with playexperience knows how heavy an exploit it is.

For an example look here monday game and try to look around the Players Association anyway. There are some suggested rulesets there.

Also look in the MP thread here. There used to be some recommended game setups, though I haven't checked if they are still there. The HOI1 forum seems to have been heavily purged.

 

[Valerius]

MP rukes aren't 100% identical from game to game, but a large part is. Wrt. things like asking MA I'm not sure we even mention it anymore because everyone with playexperience knows how heavy an exploit it is.

For an example look here monday game and try to look around the Players Association anyway. There are some suggested rulesets there.

Also look in the MP thread here. There used to be some recommended game setups, though I haven't checked if they are still there. The HOI1 forum seems to have been heavily purged.

Sarge--

This is exactly what I was looking for. I've gone to the Players Association and copied the ROE comments and the Monday game houserules, and found things very comprehensive about what should and should not be done in multi-player games.

Thank you for your help and the information!