Diplomatic action: demand repatriate or free enslaved pops from founder specie

[trybald]

I play as United Nations of Earth, by the time I discovered the entire galaxy, the Commonwealth of Man was wiped out by a slaver empire. I'm currently the undisputed hegemon of the galaxy and reconquered Deneb and surrounding systems for humanity. However, about 60 human pops are currently living abroad, largely as slaves and even livestock. Occasionally humans also appear on the slave market. Currently the only way to free fellow humans is to tear the entire galaxy by brute force. Conquer all planets with enslaved humans, resettle them, and then even give back the depopulated planets because I do not need them.

I think there should be a diplomatic action to coerce other empires to repatriate or at least free pops from our founder species. It could be something similar to subjugation in which a refusal gives a casus belli to enforce our demands. It could also work for pops being genocided/assimilated or even free pops living under dictatorial regimes.

What do you think about it?

 

[The Founder]

You could just liberate the Empire, so they take on your Ethics. For a bonus, as Stock UNS with stock Ethics you will get plenty of people to invite to your Federation.

There are some GC resolutions you can use the effectively outlaw salvery. Particulary look at "The Greater Good":
Tier 1 gives workers more political power (keeping that low is very important for Slavery to maintain Stability)
Tier 2 bans Basic Subsintence Living Standart
Tier 3 bans Chattel and the Lifestock slavery variants as well as Stratified Economy
Tier 4 bans all Slavery outright.

Any interference in internal politics beyond the GC resolutions should require Warfare, IMHO.

 

[trybald]

That's a slow slugfest. Not practicable when for example pops are being genocided.

 

[The Founder]

That's a slow slugfest. Not practicable when for example pops are being genocided.

The best part of going the Galactic Council route, is that others can do the work for you. All the ones not going Slavery will be more then happy to attack the Slavers that are in breach of Galactic Law and suffer from Military Sanctions.

Demanding repatriation is in effect a interference in another States Sovereingty. Something that should only be possible via Warfare.

"War is merely the continuation of policy by other means.
We see, therefore, that war is not merely an act of policy but a true political instrument, a continuation of political intercourse carried on with other means. What remains peculiar to war is simply the peculiar nature of its means."
Carl von Clausewitz, the namegiver of the Clausewitz Engine which all Paradox games are based on.

 

[trybald]

That's the point. "You give us our people back or we will take them ourselves".

 

[The Founder]

That's the point. "You give us our people back or we will take them ourselves".

The best way to make sure humans are save in other empires - both now and in the future - it so make sure that no other Empire can comit slavery or purges.

The idea is good - but the solution is already there. And has been since 1.0 (pretty sure Liberation war is that old), with some additional options being added with the Galactic Community.

 

[Anton1978]

I agree 110% - I don't understand why there is no such reason for the war.
By the way, in the first versions of the game there was a reason for the war - "Stop the genocide". I remember I also played for humanity, so the stagnate attacked me on the 20th turn of the game, demanding an end to the genocide.
There should be more reasons for war: to stop genocide, to give equal rights, to free slaves (I was kidnapped by bombing during the war - I have to save them from slavery).
Why is there a reason to "Levy a tribute", but not a reason to "steal supplies" (after the end of the war, the winner will be paid a fixed amount from the supplies of the losers)?
And the liberation of their own from slavery has always been a reason for war, even in the history of mankind.
For religious nations there should be a reason for religious wars, for xenophobes - to free their own people from slavery, for xenophiles ... I don't know what, but they probably respect something.

 

[The Founder]

I remember I also played for humanity, so the stagnate attacked me on the 20th turn of the game, demanding an end to the genocide.

Which was entirely redundant once we got Liberation Warfare.

They can not purge or enslave, if they have no Ethis that allow purge.

 

[Anton1978]

Which was entirely redundant once we got Liberation Warfare.

They can not purge or enslave, if they have no Ethis that allow purge.

And if they can? While you decide the fate of the galaxy in endless meetings of the galactic senate, somewhere, a fanatical purifier is killing children.

 

[The Founder]

And if they can?

You change their Ethic. With Liberation Warfare.

What part of this do you not understand?
What part of that is a issue for you?
What can the idea do, that Liberation, Conquest Warfare as well as the Galactic Community Resolutions can not already do?

 

[Anton1978]

You change their Ethic. With Liberation Warfare.

What part of this do you not understand?
What part of that is a issue for you?
What can the idea do, that Liberation, Conquest Warfare as well as the Galactic Community Resolutions can not already do?

What if I share the same ethics with them?

 

[trybald]

Because liberation wars work in a narrow context.
What if I want my people back, not caring about what else target empire is doing?

 

[HFY]

Yeah and what if I'm playing a Xenophobe, where imposing my ethics would allow THEIR species to enslave MINE.

That's not at all what I want when playing a Xenophobe.

I want my people on top.

 

[The Founder]

What if I share the same ethics with them?

Yeah and what if I'm playing a Xenophobe, where imposing my ethics would allow THEIR species to enslave MINE.

Yes, whatever am I going to do agaisnt the free Xenophobe ethics Attraction for my main species?
"An alien empire has enslaved a pop of the empires primary species" from https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Ethics
x0.5 Xenophile , x2.0 Xenophobe for Attraction values.

Oh woe me. Those aliens are enslaving humans, allowing me to point at them to say " this is why the aliens can not be allowed to rule", which helps me keep my Humans in line and focussed on the task at hand. Whatever am I going to do about things being easier for me

To answer your question:
As a Xenophobe I would keep them around. They are a really helping me keeping my humans in line.
Indeed I might go out of my way to create circumstances where my species is enslaved or at least keep the empire around for as long as possible.
When I do conquer them, I got Humans trained to "hate the Xenos" from decades of abuse.
I call that a win/win situation.

The only other thing that allows slavery is Slaver Guilds, which can not be transfered via Enforce Ideology.

 

[trybald]

Oh woe me. Those aliens are enslaving humans, allowing me to point at them to say " this is why the aliens can not be allowed to rule", which helps me keep my Humans in line

This is how nationalisms /authoritarianisms worked IRL. Claiming to act in order to protect kin which is supposedly opressed abroad was both a valid CB and a massive morale boost.

 

[HFY]

This is how nationalisms /authoritarianisms worked IRL. Claiming to act in order to protect kin which is supposedly opressed abroad was both a valid CB and a massive morale boost.

Yes, this exactly the sort of hypocrisy which a Xenophobe would engage in.

Them being better than others is their world-view.

 

[GOLANX]

This is how nationalisms /authoritarianisms worked IRL. Claiming to act in order to protect kin which is supposedly opressed abroad was both a valid CB and a massive morale boost.

Those Dirty Checks are doing mean things to those superior upstanding Germans. Yeah Germany did something alright, one World War later, and Germans were right to be afraid, the Soviets and Allies split them in half and the Germans lost all their freedom. Gotta have egalitarian Xenophobes too though not all xenophobes need to manipulate their citizens into hating xenos, omg they have slavery? That proves xenos are evil.

I love the flavor of your suggestion and would love to see more, like RPing the opium war, they won't buy our drugs!! That forces another empire into a comercial pact with you.

Edit: I might have had some poor wording in that bit about Germany, my intent was to point to their loss of autonomy because of the war they started and was not to be an endorsement of their views.

 

[trybald]

Yes, this exactly the sort of hypocrisy which a Xenophobe would engage in.

Them being better than others is their world-view.

Yes, and imposing Xenophoby onto other results only in them oppressing other xenos, including our own people.

 

[The Founder]

This is how nationalisms /authoritarianisms worked IRL. Claiming to act in order to protect kin which is supposedly opressed abroad was both a valid CB and a massive morale boost.

Yes, this exactly the sort of hypocrisy which a Xenophobe would engage in.

Them being better than others is their world-view.

And all that came from the Original Itteration of the Ethics Shift System. I know, I wrote the original Wiki page on Ethics shift

Yes, and imposing Xenophoby onto other results only in them oppressing other xenos, including our own people.

If you are Xenophobe you should either:
a) Want them to stay around to enslave your people, because it helps Xenophobe attarction
b) Conquer them outright anyway
Xenophobia is not known for a "life and let life" attitude, most of the time.

 

[nat.hol]

There can be many reasons why you'd not want to conquer them nor want your species enslaved.

The reasons for not conquering can be:
- You do not want to generate threat
- You do not want to neighbor a given empire
- You want to play tall (meta)
- You want to keep to your space (roleplay)
- Your federation doesn't endorse wars of conquest

The reasons for wanting your species back/freed:
- More pops
- Protect your fellow species members (roleplay)
- Punish an enemy empire

I'm sure I missed a lot of possibilities though.

About wars of liberation, aside of it being useless depending on your ethics, you may not want to topple their governement in the first place:
- If you don't trust the new governement to protect the rights of your species as much as you (roleplay)
- If you want more pops
- If you don't have that casus belli in the first place because of your policy (I don't see why unrestricted wars would prevent you to free your species?)

And I'd add you don't automatically control the galactic council so relying on that is often not an option. I don't see why you couldn't send your fleet to save your fellow humans when the galactic community won't.

But aside of these considerations: I can easily picture an empire going to war to rapatriate fellow members of their species. Why they do that is not an issue. We are speaking of a casus belli: the real question is "Why couldn't they?". Is the CB's justification that shallow?