• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
I find Reis' criticism of my opening moves to be rather ridiculous and more than a little misleading. They were made because I had agreements with Persia and Egypt regarding Cre and Mil, while Rome insisted on having Dal no matter what. The idea was to take Dal and then the other two in time as theoretically they would be left alone. I moved to Byz because I wanted to see if either of you were trustworthy and because I knew a bounce would have been disasterous. However, you coordinated a stab with Persia fall of 451. Don't think I'm a fool. You told Persia and me both to move to Mil, so it's pretty clear to me that you intended for us to bounce so that you could get a running start out of the gate. Anyway, after you stabbed me with Persia you didn't follow through, letting me move to Aeg unopposed. This, honestly, is what I think the most confusing thing is. Persia-Egypt could have worked, but you let it slip by for what? A shot at Carthrage? You decided to ignore both me and Persia and now act indignant that it ended with a Persian fleet in the Egyptian Sea.
 
Spring 454 Retreats

Rome:
A Dalmatia - Venetia

Fall454.png


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Round 2 of voting. Please decide whether to go with option A again (same pace of events) or option B (24 hour turns). Pending the result of the votes, assume that Fall 454 will still fall on Friday 1st of February.
 
I find Reis' criticism of my opening moves to be rather ridiculous and more than a little misleading. They were made because I had agreements with Persia and Egypt regarding Cre and Mil, while Rome insisted on having Dal no matter what. The idea was to take Dal and then the other two in time as theoretically they would be left alone. I moved to Byz because I wanted to see if either of you were trustworthy and because I knew a bounce would have been disasterous. However, you coordinated a stab with Persia fall of 451. Don't think I'm a fool. You told Persia and me both to move to Mil, so it's pretty clear to me that you intended for us to bounce so that you could get a running start out of the gate. Anyway, after you stabbed me with Persia you didn't follow through, letting me move to Aeg unopposed. This, honestly, is what I think the most confusing thing is. Persia-Egypt could have worked, but you let it slip by for what? A shot at Carthrage? You decided to ignore both me and Persia and now act indignant that it ended with a Persian fleet in the Egyptian Sea.
Well, I didn't say that I wanted them unconditionally. I just told you that we would waste 2 units just guarding the place and it would be better if I had both of them while you move east. You were free to object and I would certainly accept a 1/1 split. I had no way to get Vindobona and prevent you from accessing Dalmatia anyways. Even if I insisted on it, it was enough for you to come with one unit.

So it was completely unnecessary to move both units west, with or without an agreement with me.
 
I find Reis' criticism of my opening moves to be rather ridiculous and more than a little misleading. They were made because I had agreements with Persia and Egypt regarding Cre and Mil, while Rome insisted on having Dal no matter what. The idea was to take Dal and then the other two in time as theoretically they would be left alone. I moved to Byz because I wanted to see if either of you were trustworthy and because I knew a bounce would have been disasterous. However, you coordinated a stab with Persia fall of 451. Don't think I'm a fool. You told Persia and me both to move to Mil, so it's pretty clear to me that you intended for us to bounce so that you could get a running start out of the gate. Anyway, after you stabbed me with Persia you didn't follow through, letting me move to Aeg unopposed. This, honestly, is what I think the most confusing thing is. Persia-Egypt could have worked, but you let it slip by for what? A shot at Carthrage? You decided to ignore both me and Persia and now act indignant that it ended with a Persian fleet in the Egyptian Sea.

So, Rome said he wanted Dalmatia. I also want 18 SCs. Doesn't mean I am going to get them just by asking. Now, if I were Greece and decided, for some reason, that I really wanted to stick it to Rome right from the start, I would send a fleet to Ionian and move armies to Byzantium and Illyria. It's still bad, but at least you ensure that Rome is in no position to hurt you anytime soon and you keep Persia out of Miletum. Rome cannot afford to bounce in Dalmatia because they need the build to face the Greek fleet in Ionian. Or you can do the smarter thing and first secure Byzantium and Miletum and only then turn to face Rome in 452.

As for Fall 451, our only concern was breaking up what really looked like a Persian-Greek alliance. We told Rome to leak you that we were moving to Crete so you would go for Byzantium. That is not a stab by any reasonable definition of the word, it's just ensuring that at the very least one of your units is opposing Persia (which wouldn't happen if you went to Crete like you wanted to do).

Persia Egypt could certainly have worked, but while I would help Persia expand into Greece, Persia would help me by relieving me of my centers when I expanded into Carthage. Hence, it was vital to keep Greece and Persia fighting while we threw everything and the kitchen sink at Carthage together with Rome. As much as we would like to support Greece from Crete, we needed the fleet in the West and we did not want to betray Persia without any guarantees of Greek commitment to keep Persia from steamrolling us in the East.

Alas, Rome had different priorities and decided to do a ridiculously bad stab against Greece while still trying to wrestle Carthage - and Rome never got to translate the extra unit into advantage against Carthage anyway. I expected Greece and Persia to make peace but I expected Greece to stab Rome instead of Egypt, because the moment they helped Persia attack Egypt they signed their own death sentence, removing the last counterbalance on Persian power.

And while we were prepared to lose Crete even though that is hardly worth it (in the turn Greece took Crete they could have taken Miletus instead) we were not prepared for direct assistance to a Persian move to Egyptian Sea and our position became well and truly lost.
 
is egypt gonna get got?
 
I vote B
 
As for Fall 451, our only concern was breaking up what really looked like a Persian-Greek alliance. We told Rome to leak you that we were moving to Crete so you would go for Byzantium. That is not a stab by any reasonable definition of the word, it's just ensuring that at the very least one of your units is opposing Persia (which wouldn't happen if you went to Crete like you wanted to do).

That's a lie, at least by omission.

There is no need to mince words, I betrayed you and attacked you in Miletus last turn. In my very slight defense I really had planned to go for Cyprus until Rome and Egypt persuaded me to go for Miletus and I changed my orders at the last minute. But that is not really an excuse; I still did it and you have no reason to trust me now.

The fact is, you broke our agreement and took Crete and likewise convinced Persia to break their agreement and take Miletus. That's a stab, plain and simple. I did what I had to do to break up a triple alliance between Persia, Egypt, and Rome. I went to you first, but you essentially blew me off when Spring 452 you didn't commit a single unit to fighting Persia. I had no choice but to help Persia. Fighting them would have been a stalemate at best because you were pouring troops at Carthrage and left your border almost completely undefended. I refuse to carry on this conversation any further until you explain to us all why it's my fault you left yourself wide open to Persia in Spring 452.
 
is egypt gonna get got?

Yep.

Probably. They won't accept any help at this point.

A bit late for that.

That's a lie, at least by omission.

The fact is, you broke our agreement and took Crete and likewise convinced Persia to break their agreement and take Miletus. That's a stab, plain and simple. I did what I had to do to break up a triple alliance between Persia, Egypt, and Rome. I went to you first, but you essentially blew me off when Spring 452 you didn't commit a single unit to fighting Persia. I had no choice but to help Persia. Fighting them would have been a stalemate at best because you were pouring troops at Carthrage and left your border almost completely undefended. I refuse to carry on this conversation any further until you explain to us all why it's my fault you left yourself wide open to Persia in Spring 452.

Let's assume that in 451 Persia and Greece were allied (which seems a reasonable assumption when Greece opens to Epirus and Dalmatia). Greece would go against Rome and Persia would go against Egypt (so, effectively Carthage, Greece and Persia sharing similar goals and working together for them (regardless of whether Carthage focuses on Rome, Egypt or both).

In this scenario, what should an Egyptian player do? If you are thinking about fostering distrust in the Greek-Persian relations, you are correct. And what would be the best way to do that? In my opinion it would be to persuade Greece that Egypt and Persia are working together. If Persia would go to Cyprus, everything would continue along decent tracks for Persia to attack Egypt next year, unhindered by any Greek forces.

Furthermore, a Persian fleet in Miletus is a Persian fleet that isn't threatening to go to Egyptian Sea in Spring 452. I vastly prefer to see that fleet there than in Cyprus, and similarly a fleet in Cyprus puts Egypt in a situation where that fleet's assistance is worth a lot to both sides. Conversely, a Greek fleet in Crete and a Persian fleet in Cyprus means that this alliance can move to Egyptian Sea with support (as they ended up doing) so we simply couldn't afford the risk.

Apart from that, our agreement, if memory doesn't fail me, was that I would cede Crete to Greece in return for assistance against Persia (otherwise, why make a deal just to let Greece have it for free?). When Greece moved all of it's armies against Rome, we considered that deal dead and buried because Greece clearly wasn't interested in fighting Persia.

As for why I "left myself wide open for Persia", I actually didn't leave myself open to any comparable extent as you did in 451. I had an army in Jerusalem and a fleet in the vicinity of Egyptian Sea, so exactly the same units that you had while facing Persia, only with quite a bit more ground to cover. I didn't expect Persia to get two builds that year because you just let them keep Miletus and gain Cyprus and Sinope, and if Persia didn't have those builds we would have been fine. We would also have been fine if you didn't go to Crete, which meant we would gain a build (though that is the most understandable of the lot and the one we did actually expect and were okay with.

Now, you PM'ed us after taking Crete and said "oh, so now that we have Crete we want the old agreement back, where you have your side of the pond and I have mine", so we thought that we were still kind of okay, as we still had a plan to delay the Persians until we could secure builds from Carthage to hold them back, but you killed it by supporting Persia to Egyptian Sea. So, that's three separate times where you acted to make the defense of Egypt almost impossible. I repeatedly told you that you were dead if I fell to the Persians but you ignored me.

Contrary to you, we had the same opportunity to support Persia to Aegean and kill off Greece, but we did not do so because that would just make life easier for Persia. In hindsight, perhaps that was the largest mistake - we would have been better off fighting Persia alone than fighting both Persia and Greece.

I did not ask to be friends or anything, but throwing away your winning chances (yes, despite your horrible start, Roman failures still gave you a chance after Persia moved out to attack me) just to punish Egypt for a perceived slight is incredibly petty. Oh, but you may ask, isn't that what you are doing to Carthage? Well, for a start, we only did it after losing all winning chances, which were predicated on Carthage forcing two disbands so we could get a build in Egypt. Without that build, there was no way to hold Egypt even if everyone else on the board supported us - and also we warned Carthage that this would happen if they did not went through with the deal.

TLDR: We would have accepted a NAP between Greece and Persia and even a stab against Rome as legitimate play, but actively helping Persia to attack Egypt in your current position is just playing to lose.
 
Rage quitting is a bold strategy Cotton let's see if it pays off.
 
Not really ragequit, I am still giving orders and occasionally providing advice to Persia. What certainly didn't pay off was your support to the Persian attack on Egypt which is now being paid back by Persia in the manner anyone would expect.

By the way, on a related note (not that it matters here though), I am starting to think that the Gulf of Pelusium kind of breaks map balance because it means that a single fleet in a single seazone has access to all three home SC's of a given nation. It's like if Baltic Sea also bordered Munich in standard diplomacy. I understand why the creator did it (because otherwise Egypt would only be able to build one fleet per turn) but it would have been better to just cut off Memphis from the Nile for gameplay purposes. With the current setup, there seems to be a lot of incentive to attack Persia instead of Carthage to remove that weakness. Another problem is that you can conquer all of Egypt with fleets from a single direction, which is similar to Great Britain (though even there it takes more time to get to Liverpool from the East) but unlike that case, armies can assist without the use of convoys (getting the worst of both worlds).

Aegean Sea also has that problem (and Greece similarly lacks the insularity of Great Britain in classical diplomacy to compensate) but it isn't as close to Egyptian and Persian home SC's as Pelusium is to Persian home SCs (3 moves in the former and 2 in the latter) so Greece doesn't suffer as much, though I would still consider splitting Aegean Sea into North and South Aegean Sea or just remove the coast of to respect the principle that no seazone should border all three of a nation's home SC's.
 
By the way, on a related note (not that it matters here though), I am starting to think that the Gulf of Pelusium kind of breaks map balance because it means that a single fleet in a single seazone has access to all three home SC's of a given nation.
It doesn't actually. Memphis and Gulf of Pelusium are not connected:
The Rules said:
The Nile River Delta

The Nile Delta is not a distinct space on the board. It can not be occupied by any units. There are four spaces which are in contact with the delta. They are Alexandria, Thebes, Sinai and the Gulf of Pelusium. All four of these spaces are considered to be adjacent to each of the other three, at all times, by virtue of the multiple water channels in the delta. This provides increased flexibility concerning the movement of fleets. A fleet in any of these four spaces may move to any of the other three. The delta does not impede the movement of armies. An army in any of the three land spaces in contact with the delta, may move to either of the other two.

The key to remember is that Thebes is always adjacent to the Gulf of Pelusium AND Alexandria is always adjacent to Sinai (in addition to the obvious adjacancies). For example, a fleet could move from Thebes to the Gulf of Pelusium and, on the same turn, an army or a fleet, could move from Alexandria to Sinai. It should be noted that this criss-crossing is not the same as two units exchanging places which is not allowed.
Memphis only has fleet access via the Nile to Thebes and Alexandria:
The Rules said:
The Nile River and Canal

The Nile River acts as the boundary between the spaces on its east and west banks. The river is not a space on the board. It can not be occupied by any units. However, it is considered to be navigable. Therefore, a fleet may move to and from spaces that are adjacent along the river. For example, Sinai to Thebes, Thebes to Memphis, Memphis to Alexandria would all be legal moves for a fleet. Memphis to Cyrene would not be a legal move for a fleet. Egypt can build fleets in any of its home supply centers.

There is also a canal that connects the Nile River Delta to the Reed Sea. It acts as the boundary between Sinai and Thebes. It is also navigable and therefore allows fleet movement between Sinai, Thebes and Reed Sea. Reed Sea is not adjacent to the Gulf of Pelusium or Alexandria. Notice that due to the various waterways and coastlines, Sinai and Thebes each have one continuous coast.

Armies can freely move across the Nile River and canal.
 
We would have accepted a NAP between Greece and Persia and even a stab against Rome as legitimate play, but actively helping Persia to attack Egypt in your current position is just playing to lose

Frankly, that's a lie. I originally had no intention of helping Persia fight Egypt until you convinced them to break the NAP they had with me Fall 451. At that point I had to react. I also reject the idea that I was somehow more open then you were. I had two builds which were going to take Cre and Mil in the next year per my agreements. Speaking of which, our agreement was

  • The Kingdom of Egypt recognizes any explicit Greek claims to Crete as legitimate claims. Additionally, Egypt recognizes the Messenian and Aegean Seas as zones under Greek influence, where our fleets will not sail without express permission from Greece.

  • Greece recognizes any Egyptian claims over Cyprus and recognizes the Lybian, Egyptian and Syrian Seas, as well as the Gulfs of Sirte and Pelusium, as zones under the jurisdiction of the Egyptian Navy, whose agreement shall be sought if there is a need for Greek fleets to operate in these areas.

All else was suggestion. If you intended this as additionally being in exchange for aggression against Persia, you should have made that more explicit. As is, I was under the impression that this was a simple NAP setting out spheres of influence.
 
Do you have my orders Panzer? I gave them in a diplomacy thread rather than the ususal.
 
Do you have my orders Panzer? I gave them in a diplomacy thread rather than the ususal.

Oh... This wasn't the reason for the holdup, but no I had not considered the orders in the thread, which I have just seen now.

Usually, only orders in country "headquarters" should count. But when Egypt started posting their orders in the thread, I had decided, eh, what's the point of just making them have to copy paste them someplace else? Might as well run with it. Now I see that it was kind of a slippery-slope.

Oh well, new decree:

I will accept orders outside of country threads assuming that they are clearly marked as "these are the orders for the GM". Because obviously, I can't just take strategy discussion orders as proper orders...

So, I have received greek orders, but I am still waiting for others.