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SonofWinter

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I understand your diplomacy goes down as your aristocracy goes down. Something needs to be done, so that you can have a decent diplomatic score. How about a certain level of plutocracy or maybe a certain infra level gives you the ability to build a diplomatic corps that lets your diplomats give you a bonus you would naturally loose, for not having a high aristocracy rating. Maybe a steadily increasing diplomatic school that can get you up to +3 diplomacy.
 

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In those times, I don't think the major players (who were on the aristocrat side of the spectrum) would be very much impressed by nonaristocratic diplomats. So i felt this was an appropriate way to model it. It's not like there was a professional ministry of foriegn affairs back then.
 

joriandrake

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Dayvit781 said:
In those times, I don't think the major players (who were on the aristocrat side of the spectrum) would be very much impressed by nonaristocratic diplomats. So i felt this was an appropriate way to model it. It's not like there was a professional ministry of foriegn affairs back then.
There were some non aristocatratic ones.
And for al nations.
 

SonofWinter

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Dayvit781 said:
In those times, I don't think the major players (who were on the aristocrat side of the spectrum) would be very much impressed by nonaristocratic diplomats. So i felt this was an appropriate way to model it. It's not like there was a professional ministry of foriegn affairs back then.
Well, there was a professional ministry of foreign affairs in Prussia as early as 1770s under Fredrick the Great. He actually had 12 young men educated from childhood to be just that. Diplomats, who would not cheat or steal or disobey their prince and would be highly immune to bribery. I honestly can't tell you if any of them were not nobles.
 

arcorelli

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SonofWinter said:
Well, there was a professional ministry of foreign affairs in Prussia as early as 1770s under Fredrick the Great. He actually had 12 young men educated from childhood to be just that. Diplomats, who would not cheat or steal or disobey their prince and would be highly immune to bribery. I honestly can't tell you if any of them were not nobles.

As early as 1770's is near the end of EU3. I think is fine that diplomacy and plutocracy doesn't mix that well.
 

joriandrake

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arcorelli said:
As early as 1770's is near the end of EU3. I think is fine that diplomacy and plutocracy doesn't mix that well.
Then should I mention Byzantine, Venice, or Aragon?
 

Emre Yigit

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While the development of "modern" diplomacy might have started in the Italian city-states in the 14th century, I guess we'd be on safe ground if we agreed that under almost all conditions, the life of a non-aristocratic diplomat would have been most difficult.

First, remember that paid diplomats are a very recent innovation. The diplomat paid for himself, and that required rather more capital than was available to merchants. Italian merchant princes excepted.

Second, receiving countries paid the diplomats, not (as today) the sending ones. This lasted until well into the 17th century. The monies were paid in a mix of gifts and retainers. Nor surprisingly, they were closely correlated to rank.

Third, while the modern concept of "ambassador" is not strictly applicable in the EU3 timeframe, the idea that a mere merchant or clerk could represent a Crowned Head of State would have been risible. The Dutch, for example, had difficulty getting themselves taken as seriously as they ought to have been, mainly because they appeared too republican. As for the Swiss, did they even have regular embassies in this timeframe? I seem to remember that the Louis XIV kicked up an almighty fuss about receiving their envoys, as this as seen as simply too infra dig. (The Swiss, not surprisingly, tell that story differently.)

However, I do agree that a formal diplomatic corps thingy would be nice, late in the game. Maybe a special development you can build in your own capital that counteracts any ill effects from badboy or something?
 

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Emre Yigit said:
While the development of "modern" diplomacy might have started in the Italian city-states in the 14th century, I guess we'd be on safe ground if we agreed that under almost all conditions, the life of a non-aristocratic diplomat would have been most difficult.

First, remember that paid diplomats are a very recent innovation. The diplomat paid for himself, and that required rather more capital than was available to merchants. Italian merchant princes excepted.

Second, receiving countries paid the diplomats, not (as today) the sending ones. This lasted until well into the 17th century. The monies were paid in a mix of gifts and retainers. Nor surprisingly, they were closely correlated to rank.

Third, while the modern concept of "ambassador" is not strictly applicable in the EU3 timeframe, the idea that a mere merchant or clerk could represent a Crowned Head of State would have been risible. The Dutch, for example, had difficulty getting themselves taken as seriously as they ought to have been, mainly because they appeared too republican. As for the Swiss, did they even have regular embassies in this timeframe? I seem to remember that the Louis XIV kicked up an almighty fuss about receiving their envoys, as this as seen as simply too infra dig. (The Swiss, not surprisingly, tell that story differently.)

However, I do agree that a formal diplomatic corps thingy would be nice, late in the game. Maybe a special development you can build in your own capital that counteracts any ill effects from badboy or something?

....hmm...a tech tree for diplomats? Player chooses how he wanna develop them?
 

Emre Yigit

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jorian said:
Then should I mention Byzantine, Venice, or Aragon?

Venice I could understand, were it not for the fact that is elected Doge was treated as de facto King, and, as such, entitled to send ambassadors and receive them. (Remember that only Great Powers sent ambassadors these days and would have been very amused by say, the "ambassador" of the Count of Lower Nether Schleswig Holstein.)

Aragon I know very little about. It would be interesting to know more. <Hint>

Byzantium is, alas, outside the time period, but the logothetes tou dromou might have been shocked out of his slippers had you informed him that he was a plutocrat and not an aristocrat.
 

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jorian said:
....hmm...a tech tree for diplomats? Player chooses how he wanna develop them?

I was actually thinling of something useful for infra tech level 9 or 10. :)
 

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jorian said:
Merchans are already seperated. Why not politicans/diplomats ?

I'm lost. Aren't diplomats separated too?
 

SonofWinter

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I agree, but a lvl. 8, 9 and 10 bonus for improved diplomatic abilities would be nice. I am playing France in 1781 and my pluralism has been maxed out for over 40 years. I'd imagine that the French monarchy would still have found some way of fixing its diplomatic relations if all of its people were equal under the absolute law of the King. After all, he is an absolute monarch, even if his nobles and peasants rub shoulders on a daily basis.
 

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Imagine there was an MP game and players took most powerhouses like France, England, Spain, Turkey, Russia, etc.
Now imagine they all went to plutocracy.

Now how in such environment being an aristocrat would make you better diplomat?

The diplomacy should depend on both countries.
If the target country is more plutocratical than aristocratic, it would more 'like' a plutocratic diplomat, and vice versa.
For that reason reputation should be tied to some other factor, not diplomacy.
 

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  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
Anyway, currently Plutocracy is way better than Aristocracy, and you are proposing to eliminate one of the few drawbacks?