Diplomacy Needs Causality Reversal

[robofish126]

As the game currently works, unless other nations happen to be already close in ethos and otherwise friendly, you can't really convert their people of make pacts with their leaders... instead you fight a war of Liberation which magically flips their ethos towards the person who just vaporized their fleets and bombarded their colonies. For that matter you can't really convert foreign colony pops period, and can't convert foreign pops through any means other than getting the other nation to sign a migration pact AND getting them to move over AND dropping the ethic anti-divergence hammer on them.

I think it should be the reverse. I think that national ethos and culture should be able to subvert and convert citizens of neighboring nations, eventually resulting in discontent and separatist forces which give you a casus belli to Liberate or Annex the colonies, or Vassalize the nation. Also pops shouldn't need a pact to be able to migrate to another nation, that should be the default unless a nation has a policy stance blocking it, and even then some might try to migrate illegally.

It should be possible for you to win without having to instigate wars, something which is virtually mandatory in the current design regardless of ethos.

 

[Paulus Leto]

So something akin to pressure from Civ? It might be nice to see as part of an espionage upgrade. That said, you don't flip the ethos of pops when you liberate, you just set up a state similar to your own; they're the ones that have to nail pops with the divergence hammer or suffer riots as a result.

 

[iniudan]

Liberation is basically installing a puppet government, as they often just submit to demand of vassalisation or tribute.

As for what you ask in the second part, that should become possible in 1.5, due to faction and population ethos rework.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-54-ethics-rework.987286/

 

[BrokenSky]

Personally I think that immigration should be set by policy (encouraged, unrestricted, restricted, prohibited) with immigration treaties being a 'concession' a government with "restricted" can make (but which gives unhappiness for pops who get happiness from restricted or prohibited). Emigration would be set by a different policy ("Blorgtopia: love it or leave it" - unhappy pops more likely to emigrate - good for stability but bad for growth; Unrestricted (pops have no penalties to moving away, individualists and xenophiles get +happiness for having the policy option); restricted and forbidden). Or something like that?

 

[robofish126]

Liberation is basically installing a puppet government, as they often just submit to demand of vassalisation or tribute.

As for what you ask in the second part, that should become possible in 1.5, due to faction and population ethos rework.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-54-ethics-rework.987286/

While the ethics rework is definitely a step in the right direction with regards to making politics more interesting, I only see talk about internal diplomacy in dev diary 54. There is no way to convert foreign colonies besides liberating them, even if you are a Spiritualist (who should be able to convert) or Pacifist (who shouldn't want a war solution). There isn't much you can do to encourage foreign pops to migrate to your colonies, you have to have the alien nation be friendly enough to sign a migration pact AND rely on migration attraction (Individualist and a few other things) plus reducing xenophobia (xenophilia and a few other things) to obtain and assimilate aliens.

 

[iniudan]

Personally I think that immigration should be set by policy (encouraged, unrestricted, restricted, prohibited) with immigration treaties being a 'concession' a government with "restricted" can make (but which gives unhappiness for pops who get happiness from restricted or prohibited). Emigration would be set by a different policy ("Blorgtopia: love it or leave it" - unhappy pops more likely to emigrate - good for stability but bad for growth; Unrestricted (pops have no penalties to moving away, individualists and xenophiles get +happiness for having the policy option); restricted and forbidden). Or something like that?

On that I agree, we really need more immigration policies, that way even xenophobe could have immigration with other nation, except in their case it would mostly just be emigrant, as a less permanent and more diplomacy friendly solution to get rid of xenos, would also make their fanatic planetary edict, illegal alien, useful.

 

[iniudan]

While the ethics rework is definitely a step in the right direction with regards to making politics more interesting, I only see talk about internal diplomacy in dev diary 54. There is no way to convert foreign colonies besides liberating them, even if you are a Spiritualist (who should be able to convert) or Pacifist (who shouldn't want a war solution). There isn't much you can do to encourage foreign pops to migrate to your colonies, you have to have the alien nation be friendly enough to sign a migration pact AND rely on migration attraction (Individualist and a few other things) plus reducing xenophobia (xenophilia and a few other things) to obtain and assimilate aliens.

Well if you read how 1.5 faction work, I would guess you can convert other nation by having lot of emigrant going toward them, as they would add to their particular faction pressure.

 

[Seomis]

As the game currently works, unless other nations happen to be already close in ethos and otherwise friendly, you can't really convert their people of make pacts with their leaders... instead you fight a war of Liberation which magically flips their ethos towards the person who just vaporized their fleets and bombarded their colonies.

It only changes the government ethos, because you install a puppet. The pops don't move an inch in ethos and are usually pissed off indefinitely.

 

[Alblaka]

My big problem is that 'Liberate' doesn't actually liberate planets, but simply mystically instant-brainwashes them and then puts them under a new government.

I assume that the upcoming Banks ethic rework will change that, though.

 

[Chaos_TLW]

My big problem is that 'Liberate' doesn't actually liberate planets, but simply mystically instant-brainwashes them and then puts them under a new government.

I assume that the upcoming Banks ethic rework will change that, though.

It doesn't, though. Last I checked all the pops still have their original ethos, only thing that has changed is the government ethos.

 

[robofish126]

Well if you read how 1.5 faction work, I would guess you can convert other nation by having lot of emigrant going toward them, as they would add to their particular faction pressure.

I suppose that's true, but that falls into the same problem as before, which is that unless a nation is willing to sign a migration pact then you can't do anything to sway their populace.

It only changes the government ethos, because you install a puppet. The pops don't move an inch in ethos and are usually pissed off indefinitely.

That's not generally your problem, unless it reaches the point where they have a successful separatist movement. Many ethos have ways to either encourage ethics convergence and/or purge those who aren't compliant. Moreover it doesn't matter what tools your nation has to encourage or 'encourage' compliance with the new ethos, as it has no effect on the liberated state.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

While the ethics rework is definitely a step in the right direction with regards to making politics more interesting, I only see talk about internal diplomacy in dev diary 54. There is no way to convert foreign colonies besides liberating them, even if you are a Spiritualist (who should be able to convert) or Pacifist (who shouldn't want a war solution). There isn't much you can do to encourage foreign pops to migrate to your colonies, you have to have the alien nation be friendly enough to sign a migration pact AND rely on migration attraction (Individualist and a few other things) plus reducing xenophobia (xenophilia and a few other things) to obtain and assimilate aliens.

I'm pretty confident it'll only be the first step as part of a larger mechanical expansion that will allow you to influence foriegn governments and/or their populations.

If POP ethics are influenced by environmental factors, it's not a huge leap to assume there will be artificial factors you can implement- propaganda broadcast stations that beam to neighbouring systems, for instance.

If POP ethics can result in a change of government ethics (which we know is, somehow, an intended and upcoming mechanic), and you can arrange for this to happen internally, it's not a huge leap to assume it could be attempted on a foreign power.

(We also know that they've mentioned ideas/plans for Federations to become a mechanic through which you can peacefully "vassalize" member states and incorporate them permanently into your own empire)