Difficulty of province-wide religious conversions

[Aetius]

Originally posted by Greven
Through event in such case, no internal mechanism... It would otherwise be a bit strange in th later third of the game you ask me.
/Greven

A "random" event before the edict of tolerance perhaps? A crusade was declared against the Hussite, so it is a bit historical at least. I don't know of any later "official" crusades. I'd think that it could perhaps be restricted to the Catholics and Islam for some "realism".

 

[unmerged(28)]

Originally posted by Aetius

A "random" event before the edict of tolerance perhaps? A crusade was declared against the Hussite, so it is a bit historical at least. I don't know of any later "official" crusades. I'd think that it could perhaps be restricted to the Catholics and Islam for some "realism".

Ohh yes there were some. However few were heeded. Though the the relief forces of Vienna unde Jan Sobieski was part of a Crusade if I remember it correctly. Yes Catholics and Counter-reformed catholics. For Sunni and Shia I would use a different instrument.

/Greven

 

[Aetius]

Originally posted by Greven

For Sunni and Shia I would use a different instrument.
/Greven

Now you're being cruel

 

[unmerged(485)]

Originally posted by Aetius

A "random" event before the edict of tolerance perhaps? A crusade was declared against the Hussite, so it is a bit historical at least. I don't know of any later "official" crusades. I'd think that it could perhaps be restricted to the Catholics and Islam for some "realism".

Wasn't the battle of Lepanto part of a semi-official crusade? Or wasn't the Holy League considered a crusade?

 

[Alexandre]

Originally posted by Martinov
I think Aetius brings up some very good points, especially in the gradual drift of provinces towards the national religion (it doesn't have to be dramatic 0.1% per province per year would enough). Or maybe just more of those events where a province changes religion - they're great.

I really like this suggestion. I'd also like to have less resistance to converstion on the part of pagan provinces than those that belong to major religions (e.g., it should be far easier to convert the Aztecs than the Barbary pirates).

For myself, I would prefer more flexibility in religions. I think its (barely) conceivable that orthodox nations might change to prot/cath, or that Hungary might have gone orthodox (I've had games where there were far more orthodox provinces than others).

I'd limit this to single civilizations: Christian to Christian, Moslem to Moslem. I don't think that a Moslem ruling class would have converted to Christianity, or that a Christian ruling class would have converted to Islam.

Alexandre

 

[Spruce]

Originally posted by Alexandre


I really like this suggestion. I'd also like to have less resistance to converstion on the part of pagan provinces than those that belong to major religions (e.g., it should be far easier to convert the Aztecs than the Barbary pirates).





I'd limit this to single civilizations: Christian to Christian, Moslem to Moslem. I don't think that a Moslem ruling class would have converted to Christianity, or that a Christian ruling class would have converted to Islam.

Alexandre

Ha Ha, you could end on top of a temple and become sacrificed to some god. I think it's all about the difference between pré-defining matters versus allowing the AI going his own way. I'm in favor of deleting the pré-defining in the game. So for example, there could be a slider where a nation holds on very stubborn to their original faith yes/no. Each side of the slider with their benefits. If a nation gets conquered, the settings of the original people remain. So if the Aztecs were stubborn "pagans", they will be difficult to be converted.

IMO, the game could become even more complex on these grounds and combine this effect with the effect of a missionar. How much does one resist versus how much does one persists?

I'm interest in what the vision would be of Paradox in this matter. We could go on endlessly suggesting new models for increasing freedom in the game.

 

[unmerged(5222)]

I'd limit this to single civilizations: Christian to Christian, Moslem to Moslem. I don't think that a Moslem ruling class would have converted to Christianity, or that a Christian ruling class would have converted to Islam.

Alexandre [/B][/QUOTE]

Agreed, though this did happen in some occassions. e.g. the population of the whole of the Philipines was converted to Christianity when their King converted from Islam. Similarly, many Muslims states in SEA converted from Hiduism to Islam in the 1300-1400 when their Kings converted. And don't forget that many of the Coptic ruling class of Egypt, the south Yemen people and the Nubians were converted to Islam as well, almost en-masse, this happened before the year 1000 though, so no worries for the game.

 

[Demetrios]

Originally posted by attamaco

Agreed, though this did happen in some occassions. e.g. the population of the whole of the Philipines was converted to Christianity when their King converted from Islam. Similarly, many Muslims states in SEA converted from Hiduism to Islam in the 1300-1400 when their Kings converted. And don't forget that many of the Coptic ruling class of Egypt, the south Yemen people and the Nubians were converted to Islam as well, almost en-masse, this happened before the year 1000 though, so no worries for the game.

Not in Nubia, which wasn't totally conquered by Islamic forces until 1497. It will be interesting to see if Paradox correctly make some of the southern Nubian provinces Orthodox as they historically were in 1419.

 

[unmerged(5131)]

Originally posted by attamaco
I'd limit this to single civilizations: Christian to Christian, Moslem to Moslem. I don't think that a Moslem ruling class would have converted to Christianity, or that a Christian ruling class would have converted to Islam.

Alexandre

Agreed, though this did happen in some occassions. e.g. the population of the whole of the Philipines was converted to Christianity when their King converted from Islam. Similarly, many Muslims states in SEA converted from Hiduism to Islam in the 1300-1400 when their Kings converted. And don't forget that many of the Coptic ruling class of Egypt, the south Yemen people and the Nubians were converted to Islam as well, almost en-masse, this happened before the year 1000 though, so no worries for the game. [/B][/QUOTE]

Bosnian Muslim ruling class also converted from christianity to Islam and many muslims in spain either converted or fled. So it is possible to convert even from the major religions. it should just be a little more difficult.

 

[Lucidor]

Couldn't the resistance to change/competitiveness be inhereditary in the religion as such?

A shamanistic religion without a large volume of scriptures and commentaries and such would stand very little chance against the unified attempts of Catholic missionaries, especially when these are armed with the firmly rooted belief that there can be no other truth - a concept alien to the loose shaman beliefs?

Applied to inter-christian conflicts, perhaps a branch of Christendom pleasant to most people would get more converts? For instance: If Lutheranism came to the poor farmers of Northern Finland they would embrace it more enthusiastic than Genoese merchants.

 

[unmerged(4290)]

Applied to inter-christian conflicts, perhaps a branch of Christendom pleasant to most people would get more converts? For instance: If Lutheranism came to the poor farmers of Northern Finland they would embrace it more enthusiastic than Genoese merchants

Yes it would be nice and logical but how to implement that?

there are many examples of provinces converting from a major religion to other but most of them had very serious problems minor uprisings, clashes between local families.. maybe this could be simulated as no income from that prov for 10 years or very high revolt risk for 5-6 years gradually decreasing in 30-40 years (after all it is the religion changing, one or two generations should pass until it is completely accepted..)

 

[Xanadu]

Originally posted by Martinov
I think Aetius brings up some very good points, especially in the gradual drift of provinces towards the national religion (it doesn't have to be dramatic 0.1% per province per year would enough). Or maybe just more of those events where a province changes religion - they're great.

For myself, I would prefer more flexibility in religions. I think its (barely) conceivable that orthodox nations might change to prot/cath, or that Hungary might have gone orthodox (I've had games where there were far more orthodox provinces than others).

Sure its extremely unlikely, and would there would have been disastrous consequences. Then again many other kings just gave the order and the country changed religion, so its not that odd to imagine God sending the tsar a vision like he did Constantine.

I actually feel allowing such options strengthens the historical model - because it will demonstrate how disastrous such a decision would have been, rather than just excluding it. Showing not telling as they say.

Very good points/suggestions you made here.

 

[Alexandre]

Originally posted by Blonde

Bosnian Muslim ruling class also converted from christianity to Islam and many muslims in spain either converted or fled. So it is possible to convert even from the major religions. it should just be a little more difficult.

But, that conversion happened under Ottoman rule -- I'm not arguing that Christian or Moslem *provinces* shouldn't be able to convert to the other religion, but that Christian or Moslem *states* shouldn't be able to convert to the other religion.

While I won't argue that there are no exceptions, they are *very* few, and don't fit in well with the current stability rules: conversion from Catholicism to Lutharism is far less destabalizing than conversion to Islam would be, yet it already brings you down to -3 stability. How would you incorporate a conversion to Islam if you can't get a -15 or -20 stability?

Alexandre

 

[Alexandre]

Originally posted by Lucidor
Couldn't the resistance to change/competitiveness be inhereditary in the religion as such?

A shamanistic religion without a large volume of scriptures and commentaries and such would stand very little chance against the unified attempts of Catholic missionaries, especially when these are armed with the firmly rooted belief that there can be no other truth - a concept alien to the loose shaman beliefs?

Applied to inter-christian conflicts, perhaps a branch of Christendom pleasant to most people would get more converts? For instance: If Lutheranism came to the poor farmers of Northern Finland they would embrace it more enthusiastic than Genoese merchants.

I'm not sure how you can really incorporate that. But, it may make sense to increase the chances of conversion when a religion has been persecuted for a while -- it shouldn't make it inevitable, just more likely than the conversion of a tolerated people. It may also make sense to increase the chances of convesion to a religion which has been doing really well on the battlefield/colonization game by neighboring provinces.

Alexandre

 

[Lucidor]

Originally posted by Alexandre


I'm not sure how you can really incorporate that. But, it may make sense to increase the chances of conversion when a religion has been persecuted for a while -- it shouldn't make it inevitable, just more likely than the conversion of a tolerated people. It may also make sense to increase the chances of convesion to a religion which has been doing really well on the battlefield/colonization game by neighboring provinces.

Alexandre

Those are very good ideas, Alexandre, especially the one about persecution. Also, if a province has been forcefully converted in the past, converting it back should be easier... I'm thinking a little about southeast Europe during the Turkish expansion and withdrawal.

 

[Alexandre]

Originally posted by Lucidor

Those are very good ideas, Alexandre, especially the one about persecution. Also, if a province has been forcefully converted in the past, converting it back should be easier... I'm thinking a little about southeast Europe during the Turkish expansion and withdrawal.

Maybe there should be a transitional time period during which the new religion takes root? Let's say, after a century, the new religion becomes firmly established. Before then, the converted province has a greater chance of back-sliding, or joining some sort of heresy?

Alexandre

 

[alvaro]

In Spain the muslim and jews were forced to 'exile'. the jews had more a political-economic reason, but the muslims were causing problems (revolts in Alpujarras-Granada) still in the early XVII cnt. The economic reason was anyway also behind that decision as muslim were the owners of the best lands in the Valencia region.
So, I don't think the muslim aristocracy would accept very well the conversion.
Maybe an option to declare the expulsion would be an alternative as well to that 'reduce city to village of pure subjects'. You might have a penalty in the population but maybe also an income of extramoney.

 

[Spruce]

I see lots of good ideas about this topic. In a thread I started, some similar ideas, and they were spoken on.

I feel that the forum for EUII is expanding much and cohesion between threads and posts is detoriating. So info is lost, and some good ideas from neighbouring posts get lost in the crowd.

Shouldn't there be a moderator or some one responsible to channel the ideas? Just start a new thread with a summary of already posted suggestions and agreed on comments.

I believe the issue about missionars, religion tolerance, converting faith in provinces, modeling religion in a province is linked togheter.

Other treads possibly have the same problem.

We are loosing helicopter view here!

 

[Sputnik]

Isn’t illogical when you try to colonize a province populated with 40,000 Muslim fundamentalist (aggressive level: very high, plus having zero tolerance for Muslims) and then send 500 people and suddenly the whole town is now Christian?
Shouldn’t be more realistic if this was represent with percentage model: say 10% Catholics, 90% Muslims. And then the revolt risk for our example would be calculated as = Bonus + 0.9*Cr + 0.1*Mr.
Where Bonus is bonus risk (positive or negative) due to stability level, war exhaustion, etc .
Cr = tolerance level for Catholics.
Mr = tolerance level for Muslims.
It should be mentioned that unless changed by random event, the state religion percentage should gradually increase over time in every city. However this will not go with constant speed. The less tolerance you have for some religion, the faster you are going to convert. Obviously disadvantage is higher revolt risk.

 

[unmerged(2970)]

Not bad at all, especially the last point:

It should be mentioned that unless changed by random event, the state religion percentage should gradually increase over time in every city. However this will not go with constant speed. The less tolerance you have for some religion, the faster you are going to convert. Obviously disadvantage is higher revolt risk.