Different hard attack values for turreted & non-turreted AFVs based on attack/defence

[jsheikh]

Hi all,

I was just reading about the StuG III on wikipedia, and I got an idea: why not implement different hard attack values for turreted AFVs (tanks) and non-turreted AFVs (Tank Destroyers, assault guns) based on whether they are attacking or defending?

In rl, non-turreted AFVs (primarily TD's and assault guns) were not as good in the attack role (against other AFVs, not talking about their use against soft targets) due to limited traverse, but were excellent at knocking out tanks defensively. The game, as it is now, doesn't simulate this at all; it's always better to attach tank destroyers to 'breakthrough' divisions instead of more armor/heavy armor/use of close air support, in terms of increasing hard attack value/knocking out enemy defensive lines of armor as was the case historically.

If this is impossible, perhaps simulate it some way using the defensiveness/toughness mechanic (though from what I've read, those two stats are pretty useless).

What do you guys think?

N.B. I am only discussing the merits of tanks/tank destroyers in terms of vehicle vs vehicle combat here. AFV=armoured fighting vehicle

P.S. Ofcourse, american TD's are the exception here, though I'm not sure how their thinner armor would've worked out in a head-on assault against enemy hard targets.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

No, becouse you won`t be building STUGs instead of some turreted TD, you will be building level 3 TD that is named STUG. If you want higher hard attack, research tech.

 

[Dalwin]

No, becouse you won`t be building STUGs instead of some turreted TD, you will be building level 3 TD that is named STUG. If you want higher hard attack, research tech.

What I think he is saying here is that the Stug and the Marder, although very different vehicles, may well be fitting the same slot in the vehicle hierarchy. Keep in mind that the vehicle names are just flavor text. Sometimes they do such an effective job of providing flavor that players forget that the actual vehicle models and their stats are not being individually represented. The system is more generic than that.

The OP's idea is an interesting one but I do not think it fits well into HOI.

 

[unmerged(83175)]

Hi all,

I was just reading about the StuG III on wikipedia, and I got an idea: why not implement different hard attack values for turreted AFVs (tanks) and non-turreted AFVs (Tank Destroyers, assault guns) based on whether they are attacking or defending?

In rl, non-turreted AFVs (primarily TD's and assault guns) were not as good in the attack role (against other AFVs, not talking about their use against soft targets) due to limited traverse, but were excellent at knocking out tanks defensively. The game, as it is now, doesn't simulate this at all; it's always better to attach tank destroyers to 'breakthrough' divisions instead of more armor/heavy armor/use of close air support, in terms of increasing hard attack value/knocking out enemy defensive lines of armor as was the case historically.

If this is impossible, perhaps simulate it some way using the defensiveness/toughness mechanic (though from what I've read, those two stats are pretty useless).

What do you guys think?

N.B. I am only discussing the merits of tanks/tank destroyers in terms of vehicle vs vehicle combat here. AFV=armoured fighting vehicle

P.S. Ofcourse, american TD's are the exception here, though I'm not sure how their thinner armor would've worked out in a head-on assault against enemy hard targets.

To see a difference stat wise between a casemate Td and a turret based Td, you will have to wait for mods. Same for the difference between an open-toppend and an enclosed Td.

 

[Mannstien]

To see a difference stat wise between a casemate Td and a turret based Td, you will have to wait for mods. Same for the difference between an open-toppend and an enclosed Td.

The shame of it is that I've already pictured myself playing HOI4 for 3 months after release and sitting it down and praying for mods to add flavor, I think I made it about 2 months in Vanilla hoi3 before that happened and have calculated the additional eye candy in 4 will add one month Lol

 

[Klausewitz]

And then there is the question if at the level of HoI4, which only starts at the operational level, tactical level differences can and should be represented.

 

[DoomBunny]

So what if I want turreted TDs instead of Marders?

 

[Dalwin]

So what if I want turreted TDs instead of Marders?

Actually Marders did have turrets. they were open top turrets, however. Most of the turretless vehicles were German; Stug, Hetzer, Jagdpanther etc.; though some other nations had them as well, just not to the same extent.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Hi all,

I was just reading about the StuG III on wikipedia, and I got an idea: why not implement different hard attack values for turreted AFVs (tanks) and non-turreted AFVs (Tank Destroyers, assault guns) based on whether they are attacking or defending?

...

If this is impossible...

Easy to do in HoI3. It's called terrain modifiers.

If a tank division has -50% attack efficiency in some terrain this means that all it's combat values ( including hard attack ) are half of the displayed amount when attacking, compared to when it is defending.


Quite alot of mods ( including the one I wrote ) give casemate TDs worse terrain modifiers when attacking then normal turreted tanks have.



Edit: In fact it turns out you don't even need a mod. I checked the gamefiles and this is already implemented in Hoi3 TFH:
TDs have -50% urban attack while Armor have -40%
TDs have -20% woods attack while Armor have -10%
TDs have -30% mountain attack while Armor have -20%

TDs also have an even bigger difference but in the other direction for defense modifiers, which makes sense due to the casemate ability to hide and ambush.

The game, as it is now, doesn't simulate this at all

Turns out that the game ( assuming you mean HoI3 ) does in fact simulate this pretty well. A tank brigade will have only 30% efficiency when defending a mountain pass, but a Tank Destroyer brigade will have 70% efficinecy, or more then twice as high effective hard attack and defensive values!

 

[podcat]

Exactly, it was already modeled in hoi3