Differences in major countries' tank tech trees?

[traffic70]

I have colored the parts where I ask my questions. Everything else is aside.

I was wondering if there will be differences in the options that each country has for tank types available in each year. Germany's only option for heavy tanks until 1941 (when the Tiger becomes available) is the grosstraktor, a 1934 tech in the game.

Germany did not mass produce any type of true heavy tank until the Tiger, though it does ignore the Neubaufahrzeug (1934) which was a later design than the Grosstraktor (1928) (both tanks were produced only in small numbers and as prototypes - 6 for grosstraktor and 5 for neubaufahrzeug). Interesting aside: the Germans created the Panzer IV as a "heavy support tank." Demonstrates how much the weights of tanks grew in a few years.

However, some other countries did focus far more on heavy tanks during the pre-war and early-war years. Probably the best example is the USSR which produced non-prototype vehicles such as the T35 (1932 design- often called the "land battleship") and the KV1 (1939 design). So it would make sense from a historical perspective to let the USSR have access to a 1939 heavy.

Has anyone seen a screenshot or something from the streams that shows the tank trees from countries other than Germany? The options for German tanks are all that I have seen so far.

Also, I'm curious about the stats of the different tank/plane/ship models. Will vehicles with equivalent tech years but from different countries have the exact same stats or will there be slight differences? I know that HOI4 will allow the player to customize the vehicles they produce by choosing exactly what upgrades to add, but I think it would add much flavor to the game if the base stats of each countries' vehicles were slightly different. For example, the USSR might have a slightly better medium tank than the Germans in 1941 to represent the advantage that the T34 had over the Panzer IV armed with short barrel. Players could choose to upgun the Panzer IV before invading the USSR if they research the tech early enough and are willing to sacrifice some production efficiency, or they could simply fight through the disadvantage until 1943 when Panthers are researched. The USSR's T34s would be outclassed by the Panther but could upgun (to T34/85) or build a new tank entirely (T44). The Soviets' KV1 would obviously outclass the Grosstraktor, but the Tiger would be superior to the KV1. The Soviets would not have an option for heavies until 1943, when they can produce the IS2. The IS2 would be superior to the Tiger I, but not quite as good as the Tiger II (King Tiger), at least in armor and penetration, not in soft attack, speed, and reliability, although JS2 was initially not reliable either

(To those who think JS2 had better armor and armament: Tiger II had a 150mm glacis at 50 degrees from vertical; JS2 was 100mm at 60 degrees. As for armament, there is a large argument online about which gun was better, but the KwK 43 was a gun designed primarily for destroying other tanks. The Soviets used such a large shell because larger shells have increased effectiveness against soft targets. This is why they chose the 122mm A19 (in the form of the D25T) over the 100mm D10, which had greater armor penetration capabilities but was not as effective in the anti-infantry and anti-fortification role. However, the D25T used a separate shell and charge design, while the 88mm KwK 43 did not. Using two part shells greatly reduces the fire rate of a gun (2-4 rounds/minute depending on which type of IS2). Any misses could prove disastrous because it would mean the IS2 was unable to retaliate for an extended period of time. And it was highly probable at ranges farther than close combat that the IS2 would miss because of the poor quality of Soviet optics. So the KwK 43 has the advantage in tank-to-tank combat)

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

All countries have the exact same tech trees.

Every tank of every country have the same base stats.

The German 1944 tank has the same base stats as any other 1944 stats. Only variants and the researching companies influence those stats.

 

[Sun_Killer]

As fare is I understand it every country uses the generic tank tree. Only with the majors they have nice names.

 

[dav77-b]

I have colored the parts where I ask my questions. Everything else is aside.

I was wondering if there will be differences in the options that each country has for tank types available in each year. Germany's only option for heavy tanks until 1941 (when the Tiger becomes available) is the grosstraktor, a 1934 tech in the game.

Germany did not mass produce any type of true heavy tank until the Tiger, though it does ignore the Neubaufahrzeug (1934) which was a later design than the Grosstraktor (1928) (both tanks were produced only in small numbers and as prototypes - 6 for grosstraktor and 5 for neubaufahrzeug). Interesting aside: the Germans created the Panzer IV as a "heavy support tank." Demonstrates how much the weights of tanks grew in a few years.

However, some other countries did focus far more on heavy tanks during the pre-war and early-war years. Probably the best example is the USSR which produced non-prototype vehicles such as the T35 (1932 design- often called the "land battleship") and the KV1 (1939 design). So it would make sense from a historical perspective to let the USSR have access to a 1939 heavy.

Has anyone seen a screenshot or something from the streams that shows the tank trees from countries other than Germany? The options for German tanks are all that I have seen so far.

Also, I'm curious about the stats of the different tank/plane/ship models. Will vehicles with equivalent tech years but from different countries have the exact same stats or will there be slight differences? I know that HOI4 will allow the player to customize the vehicles they produce by choosing exactly what upgrades to add, but I think it would add much flavor to the game if the base stats of each countries' vehicles were slightly different. For example, the USSR might have a slightly better medium tank than the Germans in 1941 to represent the advantage that the T34 had over the Panzer IV armed with short barrel. Players could choose to upgun the Panzer IV before invading the USSR if they research the tech early enough and are willing to sacrifice some production efficiency, or they could simply fight through the disadvantage until 1943 when Panthers are researched. The USSR's T34s would be outclassed by the Panther but could upgun (to T34/85) or build a new tank entirely (T44). The Soviets' KV1 would obviously outclass the Grosstraktor, but the Tiger would be superior to the KV1. The Soviets would not have an option for heavies until 1943, when they can produce the IS2. The IS2 would be superior to the Tiger I, but not quite as good as the Tiger II (King Tiger), at least in armor and penetration, not in soft attack, speed, and reliability, although JS2 was initially not reliable either

(To those who think JS2 had better armor and armament: Tiger II had a 150mm glacis at 50 degrees from vertical; JS2 was 100mm at 60 degrees. As for armament, there is a large argument online about which gun was better, but the KwK 43 was a gun designed primarily for destroying other tanks. The Soviets used such a large shell because larger shells have increased effectiveness against soft targets. This is why they chose the 122mm A19 (in the form of the D25T) over the 100mm D10, which had greater armor penetration capabilities but was not as effective in the anti-infantry and anti-fortification role. However, the D25T used a separate shell and charge design, while the 88mm KwK 43 did not. Using two part shells greatly reduces the fire rate of a gun (2-4 rounds/minute depending on which type of IS2). Any misses could prove disastrous because it would mean the IS2 was unable to retaliate for an extended period of time. And it was highly probable at ranges farther than close combat that the IS2 would miss because of the poor quality of Soviet optics. So the KwK 43 has the advantage in tank-to-tank combat)

You should read the dev diaries.

1) All nations share the same tech tree
2) Majors get flavour names
3) You can create "Variants" of equipment. these variants can have different stats. So you can research your 1941 heavy tank and create a variant of it with extra armour.
4) Creating "Variants" costs land experience you gather by doing warefar, lendlease, training troops etc

 

[Maizel]

'Medium tank 3' has the same stats across all countries. Though, looking athe the tech trees, some may lack things like heavy tank 1 or 2.

The stats for each tank will still be the same.

 

[LordOfWar16]

I have colored the parts where I ask my questions. Everything else is aside.

I was wondering if there will be differences in the options that each country has for tank types available in each year. Germany's only option for heavy tanks until 1941 (when the Tiger becomes available) is the grosstraktor, a 1934 tech in the game.

Has anyone seen a screenshot or something from the streams that shows the tank trees from countries other than Germany? The options for German tanks are all that I have seen so far.

Also, I'm curious about the stats of the different tank/plane/ship models. Will vehicles with equivalent tech years but from different countries have the exact same stats or will there be slight differences?

All countries have the same techtree layout.

Here you go, this is the japanese tank tree shown in the development diary about japan.

Spoiler: japan tank tree

At their core all equipment of the same tier has the same stats, yes. That changes depending on your design company which are unique to the country atleast for the majors tho. Ontop of that doctrine and the variant system will of course make sure, that an m4 sherman an PzIV and an t-34 wont have the same stats on the field, even tho they start at the same base.

Here i have an comparision between an tier 2 german and an tier 2 british battleship.

Spoiler: Battleship comparision

 

[panzerzombie]

You however could mod a national modifier ( like japan is getting for its long lance torpedo ) to implement those differences in design philosophies.

russians ( cheaper, better armored, worse stats ), german ( costlier, good stats ) .... and so on


edit: Or the same could be achieved with a default tank designer each country starts for free with and which could be replaced by a custom designer ( which adds some flavour to the base default stats ).

 

[panzerzombie]

#TypicalRain Why the disagree, do you have better ideas or any thoughts about this ?

 

[Katarian]

Here i have an comparision between an tier 2 german and an tier 2 british battleship.

Spoiler: Battleship comparision

That picture always makes me sad, those two ships are nowhere near enough comparable to be in the same tier. I'm all for everyone's units having the same base stats but sometimes the names assigned to certain models make no sense.

 

[keynes2.0]

That picture always makes me sad, those two ships are nowhere near enough comparable to be in the same tier. I'm all for everyone's units having the same base stats but sometimes the names assigned to certain models make no sense.

Nowhere near comparable? Why do you say that?

 

[Denkt]

They did change the German navy tech tree a bit so that Bismarck will be ready in 1940-41 instead of 1937-38 so they may do the same for King George V.

 

[Katarian]

Nowhere near comparable? Why do you say that?

The KGV (assuming that the tier 2 isn't the earlier 1911 KGV) is far closer to a Bismark then the Scharnhorst which it outclasses in firepower, armour, AA, basically every aspect except speed. It's just a name, but it doesn't look right.

 

[keynes2.0]

The whole idea behind the variants system is that vehicles of the same tier aren't identical. They're both fast battleships. That doesn't make the Scharnhorst as powerful as the KGV.

 

[Katarian]

Would you consider the Bismark a variant of the Scharnhorst?

 

[keynes2.0]

It wouldn't be the end of the world if it was but they have two tech spots so they should use the two historical names they have.

 

[MarcoRossolini]

That picture always makes me sad, those two ships are nowhere near enough comparable to be in the same tier. I'm all for everyone's units having the same base stats but sometimes the names assigned to certain models make no sense.

Frankly, that's not the point of the tech trees. The idea is that if you want a particular thing you can have it. If you look at it another way, Germany emphasised tank production enough during the war that in HoI4 terms they had 1944 tanks out in 1942 whilst the allies still had 1941 tanks.
Looked at in naval terms, the British emphasised their navy and so were a few years ahead of say Germany, but then again the Bismarck might represent the German player speeding toward 1941 BB tech whilst the Brits were still stuck say on 1939.

 

[77Hawk77]

Frankly, that's not the point of the tech trees. The idea is that if you want a particular thing you can have it. If you look at it another way, Germany emphasised tank production enough during the war that in HoI4 terms they had 1944 tanks out in 1942 whilst the allies still had 1941 tanks.
Looked at in naval terms, the British emphasised their navy and so were a few years ahead of say Germany, but then again the Bismarck might represent the German player speeding toward 1941 BB tech whilst the Brits were still stuck say on 1939.

Agreed, not to mention that either way, the army experience people gain and the tech teams will make the tanks much different anyway, when Germany get their Tiger tank, they can put in 3 points in armour right away because of experience in poland and france. Or what ever else they'd like.

 

[Saelon121]

(To those who think JS2 had better armor and armament: Tiger II had a 150mm glacis at 50 degrees from vertical; JS2 was 100mm at 60 degrees. As for armament, there is a large argument online about which gun was better, but the KwK 43 was a gun designed primarily for destroying other tanks. The Soviets used such a large shell because larger shells have increased effectiveness against soft targets. This is why they chose the 122mm A19 (in the form of the D25T) over the 100mm D10, which had greater armor penetration capabilities but was not as effective in the anti-infantry and anti-fortification role. However, the D25T used a separate shell and charge design, while the 88mm KwK 43 did not. Using two part shells greatly reduces the fire rate of a gun (2-4 rounds/minute depending on which type of IS2). Any misses could prove disastrous because it would mean the IS2 was unable to retaliate for an extended period of time. And it was highly probable at ranges farther than close combat that the IS2 would miss because of the poor quality of Soviet optics. So the KwK 43 has the advantage in tank-to-tank combat)

The Tiger II's armour as designed should be better, but material shortages led to it being able to be damaged by its own gun, the Soviet 122, 152, and 100 mm.
I doubt this will be in the game, but it would be cool if instead of lacking material X making production slower, it made it so that the produced unit had a stat decrease.

There were a lot of people lobbying for the 100 mm, but it seems like they were eventually swayed by reports of the 122 being better at penetrating armour than the 100 mm, leaving the 100 mm with only the advantage of firing faster. Regarding 1&2 piece shells, the 1-piece 122 shell was so much larger than the shell&charge that it would have been more difficult, and likely slower to fire than the two-piece arrangement. The Tiger II suffered from this as well, the artillery variant of its gun fired significantly faster than the version in the Tiger II's turret, because it was so much more difficult to load its extremely long shell within the confines of a turret.


If these tanks were to be different, which they won't be, but maybe in mods:
Tiger II should have higher armour value
IS-2 should be faster
The armour penetration stat should be the same for both, but the Tiger II should have better hard attack, while the IS-2 has better soft attack
IS-2 should take less attrition through movement, but the Tiger II should take less attrition in combat.

 

[keynes2.0]

Frankly, that's not the point of the tech trees. The idea is that if you want a particular thing you can have it. If you look at it another way, Germany emphasised tank production enough during the war that in HoI4 terms they had 1944 tanks out in 1942 whilst the allies still had 1941 tanks.
Looked at in naval terms, the British emphasised their navy and so were a few years ahead of say Germany, but then again the Bismarck might represent the German player speeding toward 1941 BB tech whilst the Brits were still stuck say on 1939.

In 1942 the Germans came out with Panzer IV series G... I'm not sure how you could say that a Panzer IV series G is a 1944 tank while an M4 is a 1941 tank. The panzer is smaller, slower, less armored and less heavily armed. Later variants of the Panzer IV would increase the firepower and armor but not the 1942 variants.

I think it would be reasonable to say that the Germans fielded a 1943 tank in 1943, the Panther. Meanwhile the Americans and Soviets decided to stick with their 1941 tanks instead of going with the T-43 and M26. The british did go with new 1943 designs however, both the Comet.

 

[77Hawk77]

In 1942 the Germans came out with Panzer IV series G... I'm not sure how you could say that a Panzer IV series G is a 1944 tank while an M4 is a 1941 tank. The panzer is smaller, slower, less armored and less heavily armed.

I think it would be reasonable to say that the Germans fielded a 1943 tank in 1943, the Panther. Meanwhile the Americans and Soviets decided to stick with their 1941 tanks instead of going with the T-43 and M26. The british did go with new 1943 designs however, both the Comet.

speaking of later war tanks, i am really curious to see if the T-34/85 is a 1943 tank, or if it is T-34 + many upgrades.