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Jon Shafer

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The West (America in particular) has developed a bit of a superiority complex over the last century... stemming from the idealogy of "well look what happens when America stays out of war, and guess who has to save Europe when they do go to war". Western (American) views have to promote that they are the reason that WWII was won, and that any idea that the [evil] Soviets could have had any bearing is preposterous.

And as Bolt mentioned, it's the same on the other side of the fence... the Soviets barely acknowledge that the West had any effect on the war at all.
 

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Originally posted by DrVonCool
Exactly.

He's just about the most objective authority on the Eastern Front today. I recently heard a lecture by the esteemed Colonel where he really draws attention to the West's anti-Soviet propaganda; a factor that has done more damage to an accurate historical assessment of the war than any other force.


I'm glad to learn this late in life that there wasn't any Anti-US or Anti-West propaganda in the Soviet Union all this time. Just goes to show how wrong you can be.
 

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Originally posted by DrVonCool
Don't believe me, though. Just read any mainstream, popularized history of the period. For instance, I just finished Anthony Beevor's popular The Fall of Berlin, which is hailed in the Western press as a "book to end all books" when it comes to describing the ending point of the war. The 'talented' Mr. Beevor -- in order that he NOT seem oustide mainstream opinion -- goes to great lengths to prove his Western bias. It seems that every two pages there is at least one sentence reiterating the clichés of:

As it happens so did I (In Finnish it's Berlin 1945 and I'm assuming it's the same book). I didn't think he was that bad although IMO he did go a bit over the top about the raping and pillaging since it was mentioned and described quite often and being often very repetitive (not that it wasn't historically).
 

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Every country thinks they did more to win the war than what actually occured in 'real life'. It is as simple as that.

Always has been this way, always will be this way.

Everyone just needs to make sure they view all sides of a story before making any conclusions.
 

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Originally posted by Bolt
I'm glad to learn this late in life that there wasn't any Anti-US or Anti-West propaganda in the Soviet Union all this time. Just goes to show how wrong you can be.


Funny thing. My ex-girlfriend which is 30 now and family are from Russia. She said that the russian people during the cold war never saw the americans as enemies. Instead they were considered friends....

The germans as you all know are in some places hated utterly still today...
 

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Originally posted by Kuniworth
Funny thing. My ex-girlfriend which is 30 now and family are from Russia. She said that the russian people during the cold war never saw the americans as enemies. Instead they were considered friends....

The germans as you all know are in some places hated utterly still today...

That's nice.
 

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Originally posted by Trip


One could argue that Germany did lose WWII because of Hitler... though his 'madness' didn't really set in until 1944 and afterwards, when the war was already lost.

He was quite "decisive" at Stalingrad which IMHO was quite important :)
 

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Originally posted by DrVonCool
The 'talented' Mr. Beevor -- in order that he NOT seem oustide mainstream opinion -- goes to great lengths to prove his Western bias. It seems that every two pages there is at least one sentence reiterating the clichés of:

"how megalomaniacal Stalin was....
I'm sorry, but are you implying that Stalin was not megalomaniacal? I for one don't find it crazy to say that Stalin was worse than Hitler in this department. I'm more than ok with people making heroes of those brave Russians (and other Soviets) who died ridding the world of fascism. Defending Uncle Joe, however, goes a bit too far. There are some statistics that show Stalin killing more Soviets than Hitler did...

Either way, the Soviet/Russian tragedy is (arguably) the greatest of the 20th century. The US population multiplied 2.5 times over during the 20th century. The Soviet population actually declined. That many died from WWI, Civil War, Stalin, & WWII.
Originally posted by DrVonCool

"how the average Russian soldier is just a cog in the Great Communist bureaucracy"...
"how barbaric the Soviets were in Berlin, raping and pillaging their way to victory"....

....and the MOST important cliché, of course....

"how inherently EVIL the Communists are at all levels."

Contrast all this with these equally worn clichés about :

"the BRAVE German soldier"....
"the clearly superior (in intelligence, of course) German generals who, as luck would have it, would have fared much better against the Soviets if it weren't for a handful of maniacal Nazi leaders (Hitler, etc.)...."

Now I'm not one to criticize anyone for their political beliefs, but this kind of writing -- and I'm not singling out Mr. Beevor, either, as its reads and smells like most popularized historical accounts of the period -- reads just like the fabled political propaganda manuals the West accuses the Soviets of handing out to their unsuspecting populace.

Now, really, what is the point of all that mish-mash, and why do so many fear reality: that the Soviets did more to smash the most malevolent political and military force in the history of the world than any other ally during the war. Why should we be envious or have trouble admitting it?

Who cares as long as the Nazis and the Germans who avidly supported them -- the absolute WORST of the human race -- were soundly defeated?
Why should the evils of Nazism drown out the evils of Stalinism? The Soviets did rape their way through Germany. They did unleash a good deal of what the average person would label as "evil" on that part of Europe that was East of the Iron Curtain.

While I do agree that the sheer number of descriptions of the bravery of German soldiers and the lack of descriptions of brave Soviet troops is disturbing, this does not mean that I can ever label the Soviet Union as the "good guys". Stalin was not a "good guy". I'm frankly not surprised that the West doesn't like talking about our alliance with a paranoid murderous dictator who may indeed have more blood on his hands than anyone else in the history of our species. That this causes us to also have amnesia with regards to the Soviet soldier is regrettable but understandable.

A similar problem, IMHO, exists with regards to Soviet atrocities against the Germans. The Eastern front (Evil Dictator vs. Evil Dictator) is just an uncomfortable topic for those who want an easily digestable version of history.
 

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Originally posted by Bolt
Blaming the "US Media" for lack of attention to the Soviet efforts is a bit short sighted.

Blame, instead, educational systems and politicians (both American and Soviet).

The "Soviet Media" propagated just as many, if not more myths, about WW2 than Hollywood or the "US Media". The Soviets claimed with a straight face that it was the Soviet invasion of Manchuria that forced the Japanese surrender and brought WW2 to an end, for example. The Soviet histories almost never even mention Lend Lease, unless only to dismiss it. Fact is, Lend Lease kept the Soviet people from starving, literally, and sent enough hardened steel to Russia to build 40,000 medium tanks.

The "US Media" does not have a monopoly on distortion and obscurantism. There's enough of that to go around.

Its actually the responsibility of people like the ones who frequent this board to get the facts out to those who don't know or who are unaware. Doing so without creating new distortions or new myths (like its the sole responsibility of the "US Media" for the state of misunderstanding), would benefit everyone.
The difference is we don't exactly expect Soviet regime to relase objective works, do we?

Originally posted by Trip
And as Bolt mentioned, it's the same on the other side of the fence... the Soviets barely acknowledge that the West had any effect on the war at all.
"the Soviets" doesn't exist anymore, fortunately, and their spiritual successors are hardly inside mainstream.

Originally posted by Bolt
I'm glad to learn this late in life that there wasn't any Anti-US or Anti-West propaganda in the Soviet Union all this time. Just goes to show how wrong you can be.
He (DrVonCool) didn't said that. Didn't even suggested it.

Originally posted by Kuniworth
Funny thing. My ex-girlfriend which is 30 now and family are from Russia. She said that the russian people during the cold war never saw the americans as enemies. Instead they were considered friends....

The germans as you all know are in some places hated utterly still today...
I've heard it also on number of occasions, and although i had hard time believing it completly, what i know is that in Poland it was pretty much the case (well, obviously you can throw in Russians to "utterly hated in some places;))

Obviously, books and official propaganda are completly different things.
 

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Originally posted by Guinnessmonkey
I'm sorry, but are you implying that Stalin was not megalomaniacal? I for one don't find it crazy to say that Stalin was worse than Hitler in this department. I'm more than ok with people making heroes of those brave Russians (and other Soviets) who died ridding the world of fascism. Defending Uncle Joe, however, goes a bit too far. There are some statistics that show Stalin killing more Soviets than Hitler did...

Either way, the Soviet/Russian tragedy is (arguably) the greatest of the 20th century. The US population multiplied 2.5 times over during the 20th century. The Soviet population actually declined. That many died from WWI, Civil War, Stalin, & WWII.

Why should the evils of Nazism drown out the evils of Stalinism? The Soviets did rape their way through Germany. They did unleash a good deal of what the average person would label as "evil" on that part of Europe that was East of the Iron Curtain.

While I do agree that the sheer number of descriptions of the bravery of German soldiers and the lack of descriptions of brave Soviet troops is disturbing, this does not mean that I can ever label the Soviet Union as the "good guys". Stalin was not a "good guy". I'm frankly not surprised that the West doesn't like talking about our alliance with a paranoid murderous dictator who may indeed have more blood on his hands than anyone else in the history of our species. That this causes us to also have amnesia with regards to the Soviet soldier is regrettable but understandable.

A similar problem, IMHO, exists with regards to Soviet atrocities against the Germans. The Eastern front (Evil Dictator vs. Evil Dictator) is just an uncomfortable topic for those who want an easily digestable version of history.
All ok, but telling this every other sentence puts this book outside history and into journalism/propaganda. Not to mention quotes which simply can't be considered proper in historic work.
 

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What are you people complaining about?

Has anyone here ever heard for more then two operation from this list?
http://www.wargamer.com/sp/ww2/battles/

Paradox guys certainly didn't or they wouldn't have placed Kraljevo in place of Uzice, give Novi Pazar to Italy, Rijeka to Germany, and forget to add single Adriatic island.
 
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Indeed quite disturbing, all those islands between Greece and Turkey. Also a major fault is lack of Istria, you can't get a historic result, either Venecia or nothing.
Well I heard a lot about them, but reflecting I doubt it was objective. ("Titove staze revolucije") Still one thing is sure, people claim that the Red Army was worser in pillaging then the Germans.
A side note, the Sovjets didn't just outproduce the germans, but they got better, the Sovjet army in 44 blitzed the Germans in the finest Barbarosa manner.
 

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Re: What are you people complaining about?

Originally posted by Ivan Bajlo
Has anyone here ever heard for more then two operation from this list?
http://www.wargamer.com/sp/ww2/battles/

Paradox guys certainly didn't or they wouldn't have placed Kraljevo in place of Uzice, give Novi Pazar to Italy, Rijeka to Germany, and forget to add single Adriatic island.
Never heard of one. But still, i doubt you heard of battles of Bzura, Mokra, Kock, my friend:D
 

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Re: Re: Re: Did Tom Hanks win ww2? Casualty figures

Originally posted by Kuniworth
During the battle for the city 300 000 russian were KIA, MIA.

And two Guards tank armies.
 
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Originally posted by Bolt
Blaming the "US Media" for lack of attention to the Soviet efforts is a bit short sighted.

Blame, instead, educational systems and politicians (both American and Soviet).

The "Soviet Media" propagated just as many, if not more myths, about WW2 than Hollywood or the "US Media". The Soviets claimed with a straight face that it was the Soviet invasion of Manchuria that forced the Japanese surrender and brought WW2 to an end, for example. The Soviet histories almost never even mention Lend Lease, unless only to dismiss it. Fact is, Lend Lease kept the Soviet people from starving, literally, and sent enough hardened steel to Russia to build 40,000 medium tanks.

The "US Media" does not have a monopoly on distortion and obscurantism. There's enough of that to go around.

Its actually the responsibility of people like the ones who frequent this board to get the facts out to those who don't know or who are unaware. Doing so without creating new distortions or new myths (like its the sole responsibility of the "US Media" for the state of misunderstanding), would benefit everyone.

I agree with that. I am originally from Russia and the myth there was that the allies did nothing on the Western front and Russian invasion of Manchuiria was the deciding factor in the victory against Japan. There are even movies on that.
 
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Either way, the Soviet/Russian tragedy is (arguably) the greatest of the 20th century. The US population multiplied 2.5 times over during the 20th century. The Soviet population actually declined. That many died from WWI, Civil War, Stalin, & WWII.

[/B]


US population increased almost four times - from 76 million to 280 million.

The population of Soviet Union increased from about 150 (?) million in 1900 to 180 million in 1950 to 280-290 million in 1990 - faster growth than France, Britain, or Germany. Of course Russia right now has only 145 million but thats a different story.