Did they ever fix HA getting LC tactics?

[bonixavier]

Hello all!

CK2 was the first ever PDX game I've bought and I loved it vey, very much. That is, until Horse Archers became Special Troops and became elligible to roll tactics such as Harass. That cooled my enthusiasm for the game, and I stopped playing it regularly. Now, I'm considering purchasing CK3, but I'd like to know if PDX ever bothered to fix that tactics mismatch. After Rajas of India (when this bug was introduced) there was a lot of development in CK2, but it never got addressed, AFAIK.

I'm really hoping to hear from you things such as "Hell, yeah! LC getting swarm was a brief, dark period in the game history, but it's over now", however I'm a bit skeptical.

Not that one customer making this decision will change anything for PDX, but I will not be purchasing anything from them ever again if they never fixed it. It's not like I don't like the other games. I got to play Stellaris when it was free on Steam and I thought it was really cool, and also had the chance to play EU4 a little and also thought it was a good game. I didn't buy any of them, though. I'm very curious to see how CK3 plays, but why would I shell out money just to get emotionally involved with the game, then PDX introduces a "feature" that breaks some central aspect and it never gets fixed. Sorry, if I want to feel frustrated, I'll just buy a new Dark Souls or something.

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

[jonjowett]

Not that one customer making this decision will change anything for PDX, but I will not be purchasing anything from them ever again if they never fixed it.

Wow, that's an unusually specific dealbreaker.

Combat tactics were revised a bit since RoI. Horse archers are still bad (search the forum for the many threads discussing them) but I'm not sure if it's this particular tactic that's the problem. Maybe you could take a look at the wiki?

 

[Supercheese]

I do not think this has been fixed.

 

[Whizzer]

Combat tactics only got worse as time went on, but then again, they were never a well thought out feature.

 

[bonixavier]

Thank you for the responses.

Wow, that's an unusually specific dealbreaker.

Indeed it is specific. In my point of view, Horse Archers were the most effective fighting force for most of the game time frame, and even from before that, if we count the Parthians too. As such, I'd expect them to have been treated with a little bit more love. It is not only a peeve regarding history, though. A fair share of the map has cultural retinues and levies based on HA and are made much weaker because of this behavior. Nomads suffer from this, too. We're not talking about fringe realms, we're talking the Turks, the Byzantines, the Mongols. Could also be talking the Abbasids, but Camels make sense with them, too. Considering the importance these realms had in what happened in history and how central they are to many of the start dates, certainly the game would have been much improved if their troops were not plagued by a tactics roll that turns them into potatoes.

But I also take this specific bug as a sign of the behavior Paradox has. If you skim over the forums of other games, you'll see a lot of unhappiness regarding the current state of some games, while dev time is dedicated mostly to making new content for sale. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Paradox making money off their games, and I hope the developers are wealthy people so I'm not opposed to them making new DLCs, graphic packs, etc. I also understand that a bug fixing patch does not have the same commercial appeal of a DLC that lets you play as a Patrician, a nomad, a Muslim, etc. and it would be unrealistic to expect them to prioritize fixes much in most circumstances. (With some exceptions. Were you around when the devs gave all characters syphilis? That had to be fixed quickly lol) But this specific bug has been around forever. I myself reported HAs getting wrong tactics at the end of March, 2014, and I wasn't the only one. I don't know exactly when development ceased for CK2, but one would think that in 4-5 years, they'd be able to get to it. Alas, it didn't happen, and will never happen. Development for this game has ended, but not efforts at monetizing it even more.

As I said before, I'm not against Paradox making money, but the impression I get is that they want to squeeze every last penny they can, and can't be hassled to fix long standing bugs because that would only bring satisfaction for people who have already given them money. Because of that, I'll take my few dollars elsewhere.

I do not think this has been fixed.

Thank you. I believe you are correct. From the wiki:

The Light Cavalry (Light Cavalry units, Camel Cavalry, and Horse Archers) percentage is relative to the entire flank. Harass can fire with 5% (relative to the entire flank) Camel Cavalry (or Horse Archers) and no Light Cavalry units.

 

[redtide]

I made a mod that fixes it and changes some other tactics stuff. Check my signature.

 

[bonixavier]

I made a mod that fixes it and changes some other tactics stuff. Check my signature.

Thank you very much, I'll be sure to check it out. It seems really interesting.

It's alright if you don't want to answer to it here, but can you explain why you changed the camels? Is it because they're too strong as is?

 

[EllisDee]

Last patch was a year and a half ago. No fixes for years old bugs. No new features.
But hey, since last month, you can pay a £4 monthly subscription for a game that's no longer updated or maintained.

 

[redtide]

can you explain why you changed the camels? Is it because they're too strong as is?

Yes, in vanilla they're overpowered in terms of their attack per cost. This was especially true from versions 2.8 through 3.1 (inclusive). With version 3.1.1 their melee attack value was decreased slightly, but I don't think it went far enough.

 

[Skurrio]

HA can't trigger Harass if over 50% of the Flank are HA, so they somewhat fixed it. The only Retinue that still suffers from it are Cataphracts with their 40% HA and 60% HC Composition. If you want to play Nomads, Horse Archers are also pretty viable. The Horse Archer Horde has a 75% Bonus to Attack, Hunting Parties add up to +39%, Composite Bow up to +80%, a Nomad Capital on flat Terrain adds another +5% and Skirmish Technology adds another +60%
That's a Total of +259% Offense. Use this Horde without any other Unit Type and you'll get Disorganized Harass, adding another +50%. So every single Horse Archer has an Attack of 4 * (1 + 3.09) = 16.36. That compareable to Camels without needing to dilute the Flank to enable Harass.