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Originally posted by Trooper


mzalar what were the US objectives, if not to conquer Canada? Besides the sea war, which was about impressment and commerce, the war occured because of war hawks in the US who wanted to own all of NA. The British certainly did not want another war at this time.

Preservation of the rights of an independent nation to engage in free commerce upon the high seas and the protection of its citizens upon the high seas as well as in western territories where (at least so it was thought at the time) the British were instigating Indians to make war on the United States.
President Madison notes in his request to the congress for a Declaration of War that "To the most insulting pretensions they have added the most lawless proceedings in our very harbors, and have wantonly spilt American blood within the sanctuary of our territorial jurisdiction. . . ."
"We behold our seafaring citizens still the daily victims of lawless violence, committed on the great common and highway of nations, even within sight of the country which owes them protection. We behold our vessels, freighted with the products of our soil and industry, or returning with the honest proceeds of them, wrested from their lawful destinations, confiscated by prize courts no longer the organs of public law but the instruments of arbitrary edicts, and their unfortunate crews dispersed and lost, or forced or inveigled in British ports into British fleets, whilst arguments are employed in support of these aggressions which have no foundation but in a principle equally supporting a claim to regulate our external commerce in all cases whatsoever.

We behold, in fine, on the side of Great Britain a state of war against the United States, and on the side of the United States a state of peace toward Great Britain.

Whether the United States shall continue passive under these progressive usurpations and these accumulating wrongs, or, opposing force to force in defense of their national rights..." was a matter for Congress to decide. Their decision was for using force in defense of national rights. (see http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Campus/6925/doc_madison.htm ). At no point does Madison adress the idea of annexing Canada in his request.

Now I am certainly not saying that there were not war hawks who wanted to annex Canada, but the annexation of Canada by itself could never have been a cause for war - the declaration of war was not based on those grounds and it was not a specific war aim in and of itself.
The cause of the war, as outlined by Madison, was agression by the British, an agression which extendend not only to the high seas but within the terrirotial waters of the United States. The British, in Madison's view were already at war with America, and it was in defence of our nation that the congress declared war on England, et al.
If this defence of the nation is to be taken as the war aim of the United States, then the US was successful in that aim. In short, it can claim victory, if only a limited one.

michael
 

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Originally posted by mzalar
If this defence of the nation is to be taken as the war aim of the United States, then the US was successful in that aim. In short, it can claim victory, if only a limited one.
Not really, the searching of American ships no longer became important to the British navy because a certain Frenchman abdicated the throne in 1814.

Had the Napoleonic wars continued, it's a certainty that Britain would have continued the practice.
 

Keynes

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Both sides LOST.

US: disastrous invastion of Canada, divisive unrest, capital burned, President fled, country in shambles for two years.

UK: wasted money and resources on pointless sideshow conflict that offered it no possibility for real gain at a time when it had far more important fish to fry; sustained some rather embarassing naval defeats at a time when maintaining military prestige was important.

Incredibly stupid war; a great example of a Lose-Lose scenario.
 
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Originally posted by Keynes
Both sides LOST.

US: disastrous invastion of Canada, divisive unrest, capital burned, President fled, country in shambles for two years.

UK: wasted money and resources on pointless sideshow conflict that offered it no possibility for real gain at a time when it had far more important fish to fry; sustained some rather embarassing naval defeats at a time when maintaining military prestige was important.

Incredibly stupid war; a great example of a Lose-Lose scenario.

I agree somewhat, both Britain and the US did lose. Canada won. :) By this I don't really mean militarily, but it did lead to Canadian unity even if the basis was anti-US feelings. I don't think I said that very eloquently. I am fuzzy brained this morning.
 

Gunthar

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Re: Re: Was there more than that?

Originally posted by mzalar


And, of course, the 1812 Overture, so frequently played at our Independence Day concerts.:rolleyes:

Ah, but you are wrong here. :D The 1812 overture is in fact refering to Napoleon's invasion of Russia in 1812, not the war of 1812.
 

Agelastus

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Originally posted by Gunthar
You assume that? :rolleyes: One can interpret a smiley in many ways....

True-but in this case it was clearly a humorous continuation of a running joke.................that's the way I saw it too.

:D

Have we finally finished "doing" the War of 1812 "to death"-it's starting to get repetitive.:(
 

Mike the Red

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Let me jump back in with what I view as a fair recap of the war.

Winners:

The United States. (see my earlier post) Briefly, the war removed any barriers to western expansion and provided the opportunity to grow, unafraid of any European threat, for over a century.

Canada. Following the war, the idea of a homogeneous North America, was gone forever from the American consciousness. Americans accepted that the area which later would become Canada was out of their grasp and with minor exceptions: the Oregon boundary dispute (54-40 or fight!) the Fenian invasions,(essentially an attempt to rensom Ireland) and some other minor disputes, Canada was free to become an independent nation.

Great Britain. Several factors, but for me the most important was the recognition that empires didn't govern themselves. I would suggest that this war, essentially a continuation of the Revolution, caused the Brits to focus more on the relationship between the Mother Country and her Colonies. And as such led to the best run and most profitable empire of thr 19th and 20th century. An Empire which still retains traces, in the Connonwealth. (I would also suggest that additional winners were Australia, New Zealand etc.)

Europe. Essentially from the 1830's on, much of Europe were winners. The United States became a haven for would be, (or unsuccessful) revolutionaries, intellectuals unhappy with the aristocratic governments in Europe and others, who for their own reasons: economic, social, political or religious, were unwilling to continue life in their own country.

In a very real sense, the War of 1812, served to provide a safety valve for Europe's population, allowing a seperation of those who accepted the conditions in their own country, from those who didn't. If I can offer an unfair metaphor, the sheep stayed and the sheepdogs left. This is especially true in Ireland, begining in the 1830's and with Germany and Central Europe slightly later, particularily after the Revolutions of 1848 and finally including Eastern Europe during the later part of the 19th and early 20th centuries.

I would argue that in game terms, if a successful revolution does not take place outside of Europe, then the risk of revolt should rise in each European country by 1% per decade.

On the flip side:

Losers: The Native Tribes, particularily in the Old Northwest and Southeast- Shawnee, Fox, Cherokee, Creek etc. These people lost, not only their land, but also their homes, cultures and lifestyle. They were reduced to being forever, strangers in a strange land. For me they were the only naional losers of this war.

Mike the Red
 

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Originally posted by Agelastus


True-but in this case it was clearly a humorous continuation of a running joke.................that's the way I saw it too.

:D

Have we finally finished "doing" the War of 1812 "to death"-it's starting to get repetitive.:(

Damn, another War of 1812 thread and I missed it!!!

Oh well :(