Did the soft attack nerfs go too far?

[Lord of Beer]

Its now 9 days since launch, and I think we are in a position to debate the biggest balance change brought by 1.5: the nerfs to soft attack.

Here is the complete list of changes:

• Light Tank I 15 -> 13
  
• Light Tank II 21 -> 16
  
• Light Tank III 27 -> 22
  
• Medium Tank I 22.5 -> 19
  
• Medium Tank II 30 -> 25
  
• Medium Tank III 39 -> 32
  
• Heavy Tank I 18 -> 15
  
• Heavy Tank II 33 -> 27
  
• Heavy Tank III 42 -> 35
  
• Modern Tank 49.5 -> 40
• Great War Tank 12 -> 8
• Light Self Propelled Artillery I 42 -> 34
• Light Self Propelled Artillery II 56 -> 42
• Light Self Propelled Artillery III 63 -> 46
• Medium Self Propelled Artillery I 56 -> 42
  
• Medium Self Propelled Artillery II 72 -> 50
  
• Medium Self Propelled Artillery III 84 -> 55
  
• Heavy Self Propelled Artillery I 70 -> 55
  
• Heavy Self Propelled Artillery II 97 -> 74
  
• Heavy Self Propelled Artillery III 117 -> 80
  
• Modern Self Propelled Artillery 120 -> 80
• Artillery I 24 -> 25
• Artillery II 32 -> 30
• Artillery III 40 -> 34
• Rocket Artillery I 40 -> 30
• Rocket Artillery II 55 -> 38

Agree - yes, they have gone too far, and the values should be adjusted back upwards.

Disagree - they are fine as they are.


Personally - I definitely agree that they have gone too far. Even stacking all of the soft attack that you can into majority-infantry or rocket artillery divisions, its incredibly difficult to break through an organised Benelux/France defense. And whilst labouring over the valuable tiles of Western Europe might be interesting, when you have to do it over hundreds of tiles in the USSR it becomes a real chore.

In particular, tanks can no longer fulfill their role of creating breakthroughs and encirclements. They simply take too long to push through infantry, and the enemy can easily readjust their position.

I hope we can see some increases to the stats that have been nerfed, and separately a slight decrease to recovery rates for infantry in 1.5.2.

Right now there is just a lot of sitting around if defences on both sides are too strong, which does not make for enjoyable gameplay.

What do you think?

 

[wesleytj]

I think adjusted back upwards some, with caps on the bonuses to prevent the sorts of ridiculous abuses we saw before the change.

So agree, with a caveat.

 

[dav77-b]

Its now 9 days since launch, and I think we are in a position to debate the biggest balance change brought by 1.5: the nerfs to soft attack.

Here is the complete list of changes:

• Light Tank I 15 -> 13
  
• Light Tank II 21 -> 16
  
• Light Tank III 27 -> 22
  
• Medium Tank I 22.5 -> 19
  
• Medium Tank II 30 -> 25
  
• Medium Tank III 39 -> 32
  
• Heavy Tank I 18 -> 15
  
• Heavy Tank II 33 -> 27
  
• Heavy Tank III 42 -> 35
  
• Modern Tank 49.5 -> 40
• Great War Tank 12 -> 8
• Self Propelled Artillery Soft Attack values were lowered
• Light Self Propelled Artillery I 42 -> 34
• Light Self Propelled Artillery II 56 -> 42
• Light Self Propelled Artillery III 63 -> 46
• Medium Self Propelled Artillery I 56 -> 42
  
• Medium Self Propelled Artillery II 72 -> 50
  
• Medium Self Propelled Artillery III 84 -> 55
  
• Heavy Self Propelled Artillery I 70 -> 55
  
• Heavy Self Propelled Artillery II 97 -> 74
  
• Heavy Self Propelled Artillery III 117 -> 80
  
• Modern Self Propelled Artillery 120 -> 80
• Artillery I 24 -> 25
• Artillery II 32 -> 30
• Artillery III 40 -> 34
• Rocket Artillery I 40 -> 30
• Rocket Artillery II 55 -> 38

Agree - yes, they have gone too far, and the values should be adjusted back upwards.

Disagree - they are fine as they are.


Personally - I definitely agree that they have gone too far. Even stacking all of the soft attack that you can into majority-infantry or rocket artillery divisions, its incredibly difficult to break through an organised Benelux/France defense. And whilst labouring over the valuable tiles of Western Europe might be interesting, when you have to do it over hundreds of tiles in the USSR it becomes a real chore.

In particular, tanks can no longer fulfill their role of creating breakthroughs and encirclements. They simply take too long to push through infantry, and the enemy can easily readjust their position.

I hope we can see some increases to the stats that have been nerfed, and separately a slight decrease to recovery rates for infantry in 1.5.2.

Right now there is just a lot of sitting around if defences on both sides are too strong, which does not make for enjoyable gameplay.

What do you think?

My tanks have no problems so far. they are rolling over AI infantry as before.

 

[AmpsterMan]

Disagree.

I only have experience in the Sino-Japanese war, but I like that without tanks or airplanes fronts become static. I couldn't push out the Japanese until I developed my own tanks and airplanes.

 

[Uniform764]

My tanks have no problems so far. they are rolling over AI infantry as before.

Likewise, I've had no problems at all. I'm genuinely confused what all these "defensive warfare" comments are about.

My only major playthrough thus far has been as the Uk and I was able to slog through the Balkan and Italian mountains without any major dramas even without tanks.

 

[MadDjinn]

defense can be high, but the reality is that you org push enemies now with tanks/etc.

I've not seen either problem that the OP suggested (benelux or Russia slogs). Loss of equipment (guns! we need more guns!!) slows me down more than the AIs front.

 

[amalric de g.]

Likewise, I've had no problems at all. I'm genuinely confused what all these "defensive warfare" comments are about.

My only major playthrough thus far has been as the Uk and I was able to slog through the Balkan and Italian mountains without any major dramas even without tanks.

Play a historical germany and do Barbarossa in 1941 and then you see what happens, in my last game 350 SOV Divisions along the border and my tanks couldn´t brakethrough, because the SOV Divs regained their Org and reentered the fight allday long.
Even as my tanks broke through the attack was halted after 3 Provinces and i had to pull back the DIvs, because they got attacked from all sides.

The AI had a large stockpile of 135k Inf-weapons and nearly no deficit in all other equipment. I only won by holding the line and after the AI had burned 6 Million manpower, i could finish the SOV.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Armor and breakthrough means opposing soft attack also does less. Put some air power on that to lower defense and it's unlikely that tanks will get slowed outside of huge rivers or mountains.

 

[Constans]

Play a historical germany and do Barbarossa in 1941 and then you see what happens, in my last game 350 SOV Divisions along the border and my tanks couldn´t brakethrough, because the SOV Divs regained their Org and reentered the fight allday long.
Even as my tanks broke through the attack was halted after 3 Provinces and i had to pull back the DIvs, because they got attacked from all sides.

The AI had a large stockpile of 135k Inf-weapons and nearly no deficit in all other equipment. I only won by holding the line and after the AI had burned 6 Million manpower, i could finish the SOV.

Honestly what you described sounds close to what should happen when Germany invades the USSR - Early gains that quickly translate to stagnant warfare across a broad front. knowing when to go on the offensive and when to be defensive should be an important strategic consideration.

Important to note though that the concurrent buffs to mass mobilization AND the nerfs to soft attack/buffing of INF equipment is probably to blame here, more than just solely the Soft Attack nerf.

 

[Meglok]

Disagree, with a caveat. Take out of context the reduction in SA values seem drastic. Taken in context with the other changes in bonuses, leader capabilities, and Force Attack it isnt bad. Air power is even more important, as well as managing production to replace equipment losses.

The only thing that might be needed is a slight reduction in infantry defense values to go along with the SA nerf. Entrenched infantry is probably too strong.

 

[fabius]

I'm able to break through on soviet front with medium tank divs (up to date not tech rushed) even with the Soviets buffed via country specific buff and expert AI desperate defence buffs.

It's harder, but so much more meaningful, enjoyable, better for it being more of a challenge.
For the first time in ages seriously thinking invest more in breakthrough specific divs like heavy tank. This change definitely leans toward the better.

Edited: Another huge immersion benefit is that I'm seeing fewer lopsided battles (though still there) and I now take more reasonable casualties since the change.

 

[Denkt]

Given how powerful breakthrougth and encirclements are, they should be tricky to perform.

Don't think the attack nerf actually do that much other than slowing down combat a bit. Using strategies such as putting alot of forces into a small area to force a breakthrougth should still work.

The attack nerf also affect the defender as well so there may be other factors that have more impact such as how the ai plays.

Obviously you may want to look into your division designs and go more heavy on artillery in divisions you want to use for breakthrougths. Even if these divisions take heavy losses so may an eventuall encirclement of the enemy save alot more in the long run.

 

[Fast00000000000]

Some of the nerfs are good on some of the different types of equipment and others like artillery should have stayed where they were or even been boosted, in my opinion.

 

[Fulmen]

They're fine. Combat is more realistic now. I only see complaining from people who can't adjust to new meta.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Obviously you may want to look into your division designs and go more heavy on artillery in divisions you want to use for breakthrougths.

With the arty nerf it's not clear it's worth teching. Tank paths are more research efficient and arty is barely outdamaging contemporary infantry equipment. It makes more sense to push tank variants as needed and/or especially air.

 

[Less2]

Artillery needs to go down to 2 or 1 width. It made no sense to begin with for it to be at 3 width other than as a heavy-handed balancing measure to prevent stacking lots of SA. No danger of that nowadays lol.

Armored divisions are fine, stop trying to drive across rivers into fortified defensive lines.

 

[Denkt]

With the arty nerf it's not clear it's worth teching. Tank paths are more research efficient and arty is barely outdamaging contemporary infantry equipment. It makes more sense to push tank variants as needed and/or especially air.

Artillery Techs are rather cheap however there are quite a few of them. Infantry Equipment by itself don't provide enough attacks to allow for Quick victories while massed artillery do provide the needed attack and now with command Powers you don't have to care all that much about org. Artillery is resonable cheap as well, much more so than tanks and cost is a factor in this game.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Armored divisions are fine, stop trying to drive across rivers into fortified defensive lines.

If you have the hardness, breakthrough, and they can't pierce armor this can actually still be a legit move to slap CAS in the defender's face.

The huge defense hit from superiority is really strong even without CAS actually, just as always.

 

[Denkt]

The huge defense hit from superiority is really strong even without CAS actually, just as always.

It would be interesting to see if anyone could actually look into if AA is Worth it to reduce the penalty when you have no other hope against enemy air.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It would be interesting to see if anyone could actually look into if AA is Worth it to reduce the penalty when you have no other hope against enemy air.

Support AA can get overwhelmed, I've seen it reducing my penalties by only ~10%, still took around 40% defense penalty.

On pure infantry stacks that's still a significant amount of defense and the AI struggles to break it anyway, but actually good divisions will punch through it.

Line AA...don't know for sure. I've heard SPAA is better but haven't experimented enough...there aren't a lot of nations that 1) have any industry to spare at all and 2) are still small enough that they're not better off just making planes.