Did the ERE constantly perform poorly against it's enemies despite it's resources?

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darthfanta

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Well in a sense that goes back to the difference between centralized and horde polities, doesn't it. A centralized state usually loses land following the defeat of a single army (even more so for such a comparatively 'oppressive' state as Byzantium), whereas to wrest control of lands from a horde you basically do have to occupy everything, which generally required resources Byzantium didn't have. I think freedom from Byzantine taxes probably meant that peasants were more than happy to welcome their new masters, in general.

If you're talking about the Bulgar invasion of Moesia in the 7th Century, bear in mind that the Bulgars invaded while the Umayyads were on the verge of destroying the Empire, so I'm not terribly surprised that there wasn't much resistance to their attacks. So when Constantine IV was trying to 'defend' Moesia against the Bulgar invasion, he was in actuality going on the offense against Bulgarian strongpoints in Moesia in order to force them out of the region. The same applies to the Byzantine losses during the reign of Theophilos.

Your point about the constant Byzantine defeats against the Bulgarians is a good point... you'd have expected the guys to have gotten wise to the Bulgarian tactic of 'ambush in mountain passes' sooner. Bear in mind that most of these ambushes occured after the end of a relatively-decent campaign (like Nikephoros I or Basil II), so fatigue and just general discipline breakdown might have contributed to those as well.

We also do have to note that 1) there was a period of around 100 years after Asparukh where Bulgaria didn't do much and was in fact constantly defeated and raided by monarchs such as Constantine V & Nikephoros I (the latter of course resulting in disaster, but it doesn't diminish the fact), 2) when Bulgaria was faced with two-front wars (against the Holy Roman Empire) Byzantium similarly managed to take land from them, and 3) even under its greatest monarchs Bulgaria didn't achieve its goals vs. the Byzantine Empire (which was to take Constantinople).



The short answer is probably that the bad emperors commanding armies were the ones who lost the land. The amount of desertions/defections that Romanos IV sustained during the Manzikert campaign doesn't seem to be an indicator of good generalship to me, and the prevalence of Byzantine armies being 'ambushed' seems to indicate that there was a certain degree of tactical incompetence around at the highest levels.

Curiously enough, it seems that the competent generals were rarely in a hurry to re-annex all lost lands. Constantine V, for example, didn't bother formally annexing Bulgaria; John I didn't bother keeping the Levant when he pushed all the way to Nazareth. Perhaps they were only interested in the plunder; but you could also make an argument that the competent generals were not Alexander-types who wanted to conquer everything, only to keep what was strategically important for the Empire (like the border fortresses/gazi emirates of Tarsus, Melitene and Germanikeia).



I wouldn't put it that way; it's more like the Byzantine army can't be the master of all trades - it has a doctrine tailored to a specific enemy and a specific way of fighting; and anything that doesn't line up with that is likely to go terribly wrong, especially in the hands of incompetents. Training and tactics need time to adapt, and in the course of transition Byzantium generally performed poorly. But then again, so do most nations in that situation.

As an example, the Strategikon, with its emphasis on Roman-esque fortified camps and sources of food and water placed safely in the army's rear, seems to be written more for Sassanid columns (or large Arab armies), rather than the light skirmishing and maneuver of the early Arab invasions. The Tactica of Leo VI was written with the expectation of massive Caliphate armies invading on multiple fronts with the intent of capturing major cities, not for fractured emirates that were content with small-scale raiding with occasional spurts of activity. Praecepta Militaria was written in light of Nikephoros II Phocas' experiences against the gazi emirates on the Anatolian border who raided for booty, not against Turkish hordes who invaded and then stayed.

So in conclusion could Byzantium have done better? Sure. But to say it constantly performed poorly, even with good generals and good armies, is a bit of an overstatement.
Well, I do agree that when I said 'constantly', it was a bit of an overstatement. What I really wanted to say is that considering the amount of resources, men, equipment and training used to maintain their army, did their army underperform 'generally' considering their rate of success on the battlefield isn't really that great,sometimes even worst compared other states who had less resources then they do?

About Romanos IV, I don't think he's the brightest Byzantine commander out there, but I don't think he's a bad commander either. He had quite a successful career as a commander in the Danubian region before he became emperor.

At any rate, I got a lot of information here. Thanks folks. Although, I must say that answers from this thread showed me that indeed, the military reputation of the ERE was completely overrated and that it did perform rather poorly despite having superior resources than it's rivals due to a number of factors like it couldn't adapt to different enemies all the time, general incompetence of some of the commanders,centralization causing citizens despise the empire due to heavy tax and thus not actively assisting in resistance against the empire's enemies and sometimes even colluding with them as a result etc

There was only one strong point originally. The thing is though that Byzantium didn't have effective control over the Balkan hinterland for centuries, with the exception of a few fortified points. Constantine's campaign was essentially limited to sailing by the coast. BTW Tervel actually helped during the second siege of Constantinople, so in some way Constantine's failure could be considered a boon in disguise.


That's not really something that the Byzantine armies could have adapted to in any meaningful way. A fortified pass means either trying to force through or going home or starving (depending on which side of the mountain one is). It's even more problematic when a feigned retreat into bad terrain is used during battle, which was also a local favourite. Crusading armies (both passing though and participating in the Fourth Crusade) had difficulty dealing with the same issue as well.


The interregnum and Constantine V's campaigns aren't exactly a point for centralised armies. Essentially he was prevented from achieving much by the border tribal chiefs, while the court nobility in Pliska argued who's to be boss. Ditto for Nikephoros' campaign. Border forces were able to prepare the ground for the army, that was occupied northwards.
As far as the third point goes, capturing Constantinople or dismantling Byzantium was hardly an overall objective of the state, with the exception of a few sovereigns (Simeon being more or less the only one with a holistic plan about it and that possibly evolved from a trade war), just like dismantling Bulgaria or general reconquest was not the general objective of Byzantium, with the exception of a few emperors. Wars were hardly the norm, there were quite a few Bulgarian rulers that were fairly cordial to Byzantium, like the already mentioned Tervel or Peter I. As some historians say we don't really have historical sources for the history of medieval Bulgaria, but for Bulgarian-Byantine wars. Byzantine chronicles are the most voluminous source and those sources usually dealt with the subject only in the case of a war. Wars were usually related to perceived ad hoc opportunities, rather than a constant strategy.
I thought the Bulgar conquest of Moesia only began after Konstantine IV got his arse kicked in the Battle of Ongal, where once again the ERE lost despite outnumbering the Bulgars by a ratio of 2:1......
 
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joak

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As for knights, they are experts at fighting in an individual basis, but wasn't their discipline extremely bad when they fought as a group?

I'm going to start a new thread about this.
 

Kyriakos

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Quite possibly much of the "advanced" character of Byzantium was more apparent than real. The Maddison Project gives the Byzantine core areas a GDP per capita of $600 (in 1990 international GK dollars) in 1020 AD, while England had a GDP per capita of $757 in 1000 AD. As such, their society doesn't seem to have been particularly productive. What is the point of keeping the trappings of an advanced society, if in order to sustain that you'll have to squeeze a not particularly advanced economy?

Sounds pretty ludicrous. Arguing that circa Hastings-era England was a richer per capita state than the Byz Empire in the reign of Basil II?

Uh...
 

darthfanta

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Sounds pretty ludicrous. Arguing that circa Hastings-era England was a richer per capita state than the Byz Empire in the reign of Basil II?

Uh...
Well....England was a wealthy realm before than Norman conquest.But I do agree that it sounds ridiculous that it's richer than the ERE under one of it's greatest rulers. England around the 1000s was not only ruled by an incompetent ruler, but was ravaged by war. The Danish were in the process of conquering the land.
 

Enravota

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I thought the Bulgar conquest of Moesia only began after Konstantine IV got his arse kicked in the Battle of Ongal, where once again the ERE lost despite outnumbering the Bulgars by a ratio of 2:1......
Asparuh's conquest did. On the other hand, various Slavic tribes, and possibly some proto-Bulgars, were already settled there before the demise of Great Old Bulgaria.
 

Sepulcher

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Sounds pretty ludicrous. Arguing that circa Hastings-era England was a richer per capita state than the Byz Empire in the reign of Basil II?

Uh...

It is ludicrous. In 600 AD it had a gdp of 1071 per capita. It was even higher by 1020 AD.
 

Andrelvis

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darthfanta

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It is ludicrous. In 600 AD it had a gdp of 1071 per capita. It was even higher by 1020 AD.
There was an economic collapse IIRC after 600 AD due to Slavic,Arab and Persian invasions. The ERE didn't make a come back economically until the Isaurian dynasty. But then again, it's mentioned in the wiki that GDP is around $1071.94 to $1375.65 in 1990 terms during Basil II's reign. With inflation adjusted, that would mean it should be higher right now.
 
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Nicophorus

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Reading another thread today I saw someone post a picture of this book that I was not aware of and I watched a review of it. I'll be reading this book soon and it sounds like it would answer all of the OPs questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5XlACFoe88

grand-strategy-of-the-byzantine-empire.jpg


Sounds fascinating actually.
 

darthfanta

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Reading another thread today I saw someone post a picture of this book that I was not aware of and I watched a review of it. I'll be reading this book soon and it sounds like it would answer all of the OPs questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5XlACFoe88

grand-strategy-of-the-byzantine-empire.jpg


Sounds fascinating actually.
Sorry,but one of the reasons I started this thread was because I read this book. The book was one of the sources that hyped up the Byzantine army was well trained, well equipped etc.
 

Nicophorus

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Well to defeat the Persian Empire, Bulgarian Empire, resist the strongest hammerblows of the Arab Empire, The first several Turkic peoples hordes (pechenegs, etc) it must of been well trained and equipped!

I did not read this book yet, but the review seemed to imply it went into detail about how sophisticated the overall strategy of the Byzantines was. Which was always my thoughts too, very holistic approach to medieval realpolitik.

It was the RIGHT empire for the time. A Empire only built on HULK STRONG would of never survived those 1k years.
 

Gnostiko

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At various points in it's history Byzantium did indeed have the most professional, best equipped, well resourced, and highly trained fighting force.
Is that a guarantee of constant, decisive tactical victory? No, not at all. Even Old Rome, which arguably fielded an even superior army had it's fair share of defeats.
As others have said; the longevity of Byzantium is testament to its prowess. It outlasted all of its enemies, save the Turk.
In terms of performance, it's important to bear in mind strategic goals, in addition to bearing in mind the Byzantine attitude to diplomacy, which they viewed as a continuation of warfare. It's also important to note the context of some of the Empire's territorial losses, specifically the hostility of the civilian population.

So why is it that the military effectiveness of the East Roman forces isn't much better than those of feudal states? I simply cannot comprehend how large well-trained,disciplined,highly organised and better equipped armies aren't more effective than feudal armies that are more or less deficient in all these areas.In the antiquity, feudal armies like these would have gotten completely massacred by Roman/Macedonian armies.

To use a grossly oversimplified modern comparison: the Vietnam War.

The problem is that they survived, but ultimately, there's always a form of net loss. They survived the Norman onslaught, though barely and definitely resulted in the permanent loss of southern Italy. They survived the Seljuk Turks, but ultimately resulted in the permanent loss of the Anatolian hinterlands. They 'survived' the crusaders and when they made a comeback, the most they can do was recover only 'some' of Greece,barely, and took decades to even do that, even though the crusaders were outnumbered in a hostile environment.

Isn't survival a victory in itself?
Under Robert Guiscard the Normans' goal was nothing less than the conquest of Constantinople. At the time of his invasion of Greece the Byzantine army was at the nadir of it's power and Alexios I was only able to deploy a mere 500 Tagmatic soldiers. To add insult to injury, at the battle of Dyrrachion the Byzantines were unfamiliar with the Norman couched lance charge, which proved devastating. With the professional core of his army wiped out, Alexios was forced to fight the Balkan campaign with (effectively) pseudofeudal soldiers. That he managed to strongarm the seasoned, battle hungry Normans into negotiating a truce is testament to the Byzantine ability to 'box clever'.
The Seljuk occupation of Anatolia was viewed by the Byzantines as just that - an occupation. The Byzantines were in no hurry to oust the Seljuks from Anatolia because they looked on them as they did the Slavs who had earlier penetrated and settled in Greece i.e. that they would eventually assimilate. Tactically, they performed no better or worse than any of the peoples the Turks had fought.
As for Latin domination and the reconquest of Greece forget Alexios above; the Byzantine army by this time was well and truly a shambles, constantly outnumbered, outgunned, and poorly led. It would also be incorrect to describe the local civilian population as hostile to the Latins, ambivalent would be better.


I'm starting to believe this too. When I read their history, there seems to be very little local resistance on a regional level against invaders.There seems to be very few local rebellions in lands occupied by enemy invaders in favor of returned imperial rule.For some reason, the population sometimes even find it preferable under non-Byzantine rule. In a book I've read, it detailed how ethnic Greeks in Seljuk occupied Anatolia chose to help the Seljuks resist the ERE's attempts to reconquer Anatolia under John I Komnenos due to such reasons.

Byzantium has never been a 'beloved' occupier; it's taxes were crippling and religious deviation was not tolerated. Unfortunately Byzantium's enemies were able to indirectly exploit this with lower taxes, local autonomy, or religious indifference.

They couldn't even dislodge the Normans from Antioch even though they earnestly tried to do so under Alexios I Komnenos against the regent Tancred.

No attempt was made to retake Antioch during the reign of Alexios. He was shrewd enough to know he didn't have the resources to force Bohemund to capitulate, hence the treaty of Devol which was intended to peacefully transfer the city over eventually. Ioannes II gathered an expedition to take the city by force but died before he could force the issue. Manuel I managed to swap the previous titular overlordship for actual overlordship and to enter the city with the Imperial army.