Did Paradox go overboard with nerfing Ming?

[darthfanta]

When I first read the update on the national ideas,I was at first happy,but then I realized what had happened.Seriously,out of all the Chinese sub-cultures,why is Ming only accepting only one?Ming should be some sort of cultural union to begin with.Even more ridiculous was the fact that Zhili,which is the culture of the capital,isn't an accepted culture or primary culture at all. Celestial Empire as a government is rubbish because it's got a minimum of 50 local autonomy. It's funny because apparently the Emperor of the Ming Dynasty,one of the most centralized empires in the period,actually has less control over his provinces than the feudal king of France,who is able to completely stamp out local autonomy.

 

[Krajzen]

According to patch notes, now Celestial Empire makes patriotic and nationalist rebels much less probable unless you have Mandate of Heavens (but when you lose it, situation goes very very bad)

Also, Celestial Empire government now provides -10% technology cost.

 

[darthfanta]

According to patch notes, now Celestial Empire makes patriotic and nationalist rebels much less probable unless you have Mandate of Heavens (but when you lose it, situation goes very very bad)

Also, Celestial Empire government now provides -10% technology cost.

Still complete s#$.To begin with,you get less tax because of stupid inward perfection and 50% minimum autonomy.Now they make you get even less resources by introducing more subcultures that should have been accepted to begin with.Sweet.

 

[hashinshin]

Ming DID fall. If anything Ming should be weaker and Qing/Machu ideas should be even stronger with stronger events. During the time frame of EU4 the Machu were conquering everything around them (even if it was by luck.)

 

[darthfanta]

Ming DID fall. If anything Ming should be weaker and Qing/Machu ideas should be even stronger with stronger events. During the time frame of EU4 the Machu were conquering everything around them (even if it was by luck.)

Ming fell from different reasons.The Manchus were lucky and Ming went through a series of lazy emperors and corrupt administrations.

 

[Krajzen]

Still complete s#$.To begin with,you get less tax because of stupid inward perfection and 50% minimum autonomy.

My feeling about that are mixed. See, I don't know if you played EU3 before Divine Wind expansion (where ming factions were introduced) but I played. And you know what? By 1500s Ming was usually bordering Muscovy and completely subjugating Kazakhstan. This was both unbalanced as stupid as hell.

Inward perfection is some way to represent historical Ming not willing to expand beyond ethnic Chinese borders very much. I think Ming is simulated quite nice, as sometimes it remains huge and powerful while sometimes losing Mandate and breaking completely.


Although if I were to balance Ming, I would rather try greatly raising their income and manpower and instead trying to limit it's abilities to core/rule outside world because yeah, Ming having less GDP than Portugal seems very weird in EU4

 

[hashinshin]

Ming fell from different reasons.The Manchus were lucky and Ming went through a series of lazy emperors and corrupt administrations.

So how do we get that in to the game? 50% autonomy seems like a start, do we give them a 0/0/0 emperor and a 0/0/0 heir to boot and let them figure it out from there?

 

[SweetHalcyHS]

Ming fell from different reasons.The Manchus were lucky and Ming went through a series of lazy emperors and corrupt administrations.

This. Ming basically suffered from ~90% LA on all of its provinces by the time it fell.

What would have been a more historically meaningful nerf would have been a continuous LA increase on Celestial empire, representing the continuous corruption that tended to pile up within the system. Or at least, triggered modifiers like tribal nations get that grant such LA maluses when the ruler's stats are too low.

 

[BestOfTheWest]

Although if I were to balance Ming, I would rather try greatly raising their income and manpower and instead trying to limit it's abilities to core/rule outside world because yeah, Ming having less GDP than Portugal seems very weird in EU4

I guess you are confusing state income with GDP here.
50% autonomy does not mean that 50% less is produced by the (private sector) economy, but that you as the central government get about 50% less in taxes. The other 50 % goes to a fictional regional government, I guess (Which does nothing with the moeny, its just "lost", for whatever reason).
Furthermore, these are not communist states, so there should be a lot of private income in China and elsewhere (which is taxed according to the province tax base)

 

[Phalanx300]

Seems like an buff to me. Better ideas, more accepted cultures, less revolt risk and more technology increase. Where is the nerf?

 

[darthfanta]

Seems like an buff to me. Better ideas, more accepted cultures, less revolt risk and more technology increase. Where is the nerf?

Less accepted cultures actually.Ming only has one accepted culture,it's primary culture,Jianghuai.More provinces are now in non-accepted cultures.Not even the capital,Beijing,is in a culture that's acceptable to Ming. This is ridiculous.

 

[Krajzen]

Less accepted cultures actually.Ming only has one accepted culture,it's primary culture,Jianghuai.More provinces are now in non-accepted cultures.Not even the capital,Beijing,is in a culture that's acceptable to Ming. This is ridiculous.

But from what have I seen, great majority of Ming's area is in the same culture group which - even though not accepted - means very minot penalties when compared with other group+unaccepted

 

[darthfanta]

But from what have I seen, great majority of Ming's area is in the same culture group which - even though not accepted - means very minot penalties when compared with other group+unaccepted

The penalties are the same as non accepted cultures of the same cultural group.This is BS because in real life,the Chinese from different regions saw Ming as their own nation.They didn't see it as a foreign entity at all.

And speaking about LA,it's so ridiculous that some provinces don't pay any taxes at all in 1444.

 

[ChildeR]

The culture setup did end up being a rather significant nerf, but the mandate of heaven is a huge help. All in all I don't think Ming is weaker. It's still the strongest power in its sphere of influence and it seems that the AI may have an easier time with it due to facing less rebels. Have to play more to know for sure, of course.

 

[darthfanta]

The culture setup did end up being a rather significant nerf, but the mandate of heaven is a huge help. All in all I don't think Ming is weaker. It's still the strongest power in its sphere of influence and it seems that the AI may have an easier time with it due to facing less rebels. Have to play more to know for sure, of course.

It's pretty bad if you consider the fact the total income of Ming is only eight ducats higher than France in 1444(the total income of France was around 15 ducats and 23 ducats for Ming).

 

[PhroX]

My feeling about that are mixed. See, I don't know if you played EU3 before Divine Wind expansion (where ming factions were introduced) but I played. And you know what? By 1500s Ming was usually bordering Muscovy and completely subjugating Kazakhstan. This was both unbalanced as stupid as hell.

Inward perfection is some way to represent historical Ming not willing to expand beyond ethnic Chinese borders very much. I think Ming is simulated quite nice, as sometimes it remains huge and powerful while sometimes losing Mandate and breaking completely.


Although if I were to balance Ming, I would rather try greatly raising their income and manpower and instead trying to limit it's abilities to core/rule outside world because yeah, Ming having less GDP than Portugal seems very weird in EU4

The problem is that, in EUIV, expansion is always good. And yet, historically, Ming didn't keep to itself because it was unable to expand. It kept to itself because it had no reason to expand (That's not to say that they could've conquered their way to Europe in a century EU3 style, but a certain level of expansion was not by any means beyond Ming's abilities). Until that fundamental design basis is changed, there will always be a need for dodgy mechanics to prevent Ming blobbing.

 

[Krajzen]

The problem is that, in EUIV, expansion is always good. And yet, historically, Ming didn't keep to itself because it was unable to expand. It kept to itself because it had no reason to expand (That's not to say that they could've conquered their way to Europe in a century EU3 style, but a certain level of expansion was not by any means beyond Ming's abilities). Until that fundamental design basis is changed, there will always be a need for dodgy mechanics to prevent Ming blobbing.

+1

 

[darthfanta]

The problem is that, in EUIV, expansion is always good. And yet, historically, Ming didn't keep to itself because it was unable to expand. It kept to itself because it had no reason to expand (That's not to say that they could've conquered their way to Europe in a century EU3 style, but a certain level of expansion was not by any means beyond Ming's abilities). Until that fundamental design basis is changed, there will always be a need for dodgy mechanics to prevent Ming blobbing.

More like when Ming did expand,it got it's @r#$ kicked because of attrition fighting in tropical areas and the difficulty of fighting nomads.

 

[ChildeR]

It's pretty bad if you consider the fact the total income of Ming is only eight ducats higher than France in 1444(the total income of France was around 15 ducats and 23 ducats for Ming).

Might as well say over 50% more?

Anyway, balancing nations with respect to their neighbors is much more important than balancing them against a remote power that will not see them until decades later. I'll have to see how AI Ming does in practice – player Ming can definitely steamroll its neighbors and westernize to wealth.

 

[kitemasaki]

Ming is only nerfed if you do not take Humanism now. It is essential if you want to override the manpower/income nerf given to them at the 1444 start due to the breakup of the Han culture. It isn't an opinion it is a fact.
Once you have Humanism down, it really is buffed. The -10% tech cost, increased cultural unity (with Humanism/Silk), +1 Leader Fire and interesting Dynamic Events...equal a buff.

A big issue/challenge now is the Civil War disaster. That might be nasty considering it has autonomy as a trigger. One weak claim heir rising to the throne will cause some havoc for sure.