I belive that the radio in Somua and B1 was only cable of sending with a morse key, it wasnt used to communicate between the Tanks, only to relay messages back to HQ.
I will try and dig up something about it tomorrow.
Mr.Penguin
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I belive that the radio in Somua and B1 was only cable of sending with a morse key, it wasnt used to communicate between the Tanks, only to relay messages back to HQ.
I will try and dig up something about it tomorrow.
Mr.Penguin
I duno, the French tanks performed well enough in Belgium. Again the problem was they were strategicly defeated by the Germans. I would almost make a bet that if the germans only used Pz 1's they would have still won if everything went the same way.
However, you replace the French High Command with more flexible and creative leaders and you got yourself a war. And any WW1 style war is always advantaged to the French.
However, you replace the French High Command with more flexible and creative leaders and you got yourself a war. And any WW1 style war is always advantaged to the French.
France had extreme man power losses in WWI so they really had no chance.
Germany was just to good.
Germany was just to good.
France + UK + Dominion > Germany
French + UK + Dominion Economy > Germany
Only through a quick and brilliant victory, and this happend, could the Germans win. If it was a war of attrition/economics then the Allies win. always.
French + UK + Dominion Economy > Germany
Only through a quick and brilliant victory, and this happend, could the Germans win. If it was a war of attrition/economics then the Allies win. always.
Thats is why they came up with idea of Blitz-krieg, to awoid a prolonged static war. They didnt want to refight WW1, unlike france and to some degree England too.
Mr.Penguin
Ok I been doing some digging.
The Somua was equiped with the E.R. 26 bis mle 1929 radio, a radio only operated by useing a morse key, it had a range of about 100km. The radio operator was seated in the front hull to the right of the driver. The use of morse key only was normal for the time, as they where better for long range communication.
From late 1939 did the battalion commandors have the E.R. 29 mle 1939 radio, with morse key for long range and voice operation for short range (5km) communictions.
Some sources state that 80% of the Somua 35's never had any kind of radio installed. In the Somua's with no radios did radio operator functions as an assistant loader, though he was limited to only handing the ammo stored in the hull, to the commandor.
Mr.Penguin
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So 80% of the best french design have no other communication than visual signal and were not fully finished...
It seems too that the french army command way too much type of tank in the end of the 30'. They asked about a lot of prototypes (wich is a good idea so you keep the best one) but buy little group of several model for the same mission (light tank...).
D2, FCM 36, H35, R35... A lot of logistical trouble to keep a few undreds of each type... They would have better gamble to choose one and asked the society loosing to construct the model under license. They already did it in the first war for the FT-17/18 so i don't understand they didn't in 1936...
It seems too that the french army command way too much type of tank in the end of the 30'. They asked about a lot of prototypes (wich is a good idea so you keep the best one) but buy little group of several model for the same mission (light tank...).
D2, FCM 36, H35, R35... A lot of logistical trouble to keep a few undreds of each type... They would have better gamble to choose one and asked the society loosing to construct the model under license. They already did it in the first war for the FT-17/18 so i don't understand they didn't in 1936...
The French had so many tanks becouse there was no "tank" command.
The "cavalry" wanted the Somua 35 for they medium tank, however the slow production meant that the H-35 was used as well. (96 Somua and 94 H-35/39 per DLM division)
Then they procecured a recon vechile and the panthard AMD - 178 was procecured. Still, as not enough of them were avaible older tanketes have been used as well. AMC 33 etc...
The DCR detertinated that they needed another profile for they tank then the DLM so they got the Chars B-1bis as they heavy tank and should have got the Char D2 as light tanks.
However as they were slow to be procecured the H39 has been used here as well.
Then the infantry support battalion needed a tank as well, considering they duties they recived the R-35 and FCM.
Of course, add to it that many of the older models have been in use as well.
This is what I could find on the web regarding French radios:
The "cavalry" wanted the Somua 35 for they medium tank, however the slow production meant that the H-35 was used as well. (96 Somua and 94 H-35/39 per DLM division)
Then they procecured a recon vechile and the panthard AMD - 178 was procecured. Still, as not enough of them were avaible older tanketes have been used as well. AMC 33 etc...
The DCR detertinated that they needed another profile for they tank then the DLM so they got the Chars B-1bis as they heavy tank and should have got the Char D2 as light tanks.
However as they were slow to be procecured the H39 has been used here as well.
Then the infantry support battalion needed a tank as well, considering they duties they recived the R-35 and FCM.
Of course, add to it that many of the older models have been in use as well.
This is what I could find on the web regarding French radios:
"the network of command remained primative; Gamelin's HQ in Vincennes had no radio, telephone, telegraph, or even carrier pigeon communication with General Alphonse Georges at La Fertesous-Jouaire 35 miles to the east, or with the grand General HQ which lay halfway between these two command posts!"
don't know what book it is from because it is part of a chapter in my discussion packet for class. Maybe the professor will remember where it is from.
I would assume that it is important to keep in contact with other staffs and units in the field. Just might help somehow, but that is just me.
don't know what book it is from because it is part of a chapter in my discussion packet for class. Maybe the professor will remember where it is from.
I would assume that it is important to keep in contact with other staffs and units in the field. Just might help somehow, but that is just me.
The problem is the number of tank prototype produce in 1935/1939 who lead to actual serial production. It was already known from WWI than the bigger the series the cheaper and the quicker the production. They (french HQ) already made some deal in the past to ask a constructor to produce another model under license. So what came to their head when they asked about great line of tank.
Renault R-35 (R-40 evolution planned) => ~ Recon armored, light tank
Hotchkiss H-35 (H40 evolution in 39) => ~Recon/ light tank
Renault D2 (evolution G planned ) => Light/Medium tank
Renault AMR 35 => MG light tank
B1 bis (B1 ter evolution for 1940) => Heavy tank
FCM 36 => Light tank
Somua S35 => Medium tank
Producing so many type of tank in the same category was an economical and logistical mistake. When the HQ first choose the R35 instead of the H35 they should have force the Cavalery to take the model and just ask Hotchkiss to produce it under Renault license.
At the end of WWI France industry manage to produce so many tank and plane by this type of economical work.
The know german industry was much stronger, wanted to win an attrition war (wich was i think possible) and made such stupid choice in their industrial politic...
One of the major problems with the french army in 1940, was communication. It had modern radios, but the general staff didnt bother useing them, relieing on motorcycles insted. Resulting in large delays when reacting to german movements.
Mr.Penguin
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If the Germanys would have gone through Belgium, with their tanks and their bombers and their 'blitz krieg' they would have been stoped. Fact is it was a briliant strategic victory. Even if the eniter German Army Group B was made up of F-17's they would have won.(well, maybe thats too much of exagaragtion)
quote:
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In 1940, only the platoon leaders had received radios. The ER29 radio had a theoretical range of 5 km. This radio had a different frequency than the infnatry ER40 radios which equipped the motorized dragoons and artillery units of the DLM. Contrary to the SOMUA S-35, the Hotchkiss tanks had not been built to have an internal radio. Therefore, the ER29 radio had to be put into an armored box at the rear of the Hotchkiss tank. In the SOMUA S-35, the ER29 radio was directly operated by the tank leader freeing the radioman who could help loading the 47mm gun. The remaining SOMUA S-35 of the platoon were to be equipped with an ER28 radio, but this was not done before the end of the Western campaign. Combat experience in the SOMUA S-35 would reveal that the operating box of the ER29 radio in turret was in the ejection path of the 47mm rounds. Therefore, after firing their first round, platoon leaders would have a very big surprise !
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Surprising. they were stupid but not that stupid. One of the reason of the numerous model was the trial tests and i would be surporise they miss such a mistake. May be it was during the emergency of spring 1940. The french htried a lot of thing in hurry to put in front of the german. I was surprise that they manage to made a pretty good tank killer, mixing several vehicles in a three weeks time and put some in front of the german storm.
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In 1940, only the platoon leaders had received radios. The ER29 radio had a theoretical range of 5 km. This radio had a different frequency than the infnatry ER40 radios which equipped the motorized dragoons and artillery units of the DLM. Contrary to the SOMUA S-35, the Hotchkiss tanks had not been built to have an internal radio. Therefore, the ER29 radio had to be put into an armored box at the rear of the Hotchkiss tank. In the SOMUA S-35, the ER29 radio was directly operated by the tank leader freeing the radioman who could help loading the 47mm gun. The remaining SOMUA S-35 of the platoon were to be equipped with an ER28 radio, but this was not done before the end of the Western campaign. Combat experience in the SOMUA S-35 would reveal that the operating box of the ER29 radio in turret was in the ejection path of the 47mm rounds. Therefore, after firing their first round, platoon leaders would have a very big surprise !
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Surprising. they were stupid but not that stupid. One of the reason of the numerous model was the trial tests and i would be surporise they miss such a mistake. May be it was during the emergency of spring 1940. The french htried a lot of thing in hurry to put in front of the german. I was surprise that they manage to made a pretty good tank killer, mixing several vehicles in a three weeks time and put some in front of the german storm.
How should the HQ force the cavalry to accept a tank model? It is the same as with the marines and US army, both are separate branches with separate funding.
Besides, the R-35 was slower but cheaper to produce, speed wasn't such a decisive criterium for a infnatry support tank, but it is a for a cavalry tank.
Besides, one could argue that employig all factories was better then to have to retool them all to produce other types.
Originaly was the H35 design made to compete with the R35, for the infantry support role, but was rejected for that role. It was then decided to use them in the cavalry formation, as a stopgap design undtill enough Somua's was in service. Later did they decide to use it to complement the Somua, together with the more mobile H39. It was only the slow production of the somua, that forced the french army to keep producing the H35/H39, it was never intented to be made in the numbers it was.
The Somua originaly designed as a reconnaissance Tank (thats why they had a radio installed early on), but the design was so succesfull, that the cavalry decided to use them as a medium tank in the newly formed DLM's.
Mr.Penguin
Yes, but the H-35 was faster then the R-35, this was the reason the R-35 wasn't used in both branches.
When you're the US or German industry may be you can loose some ressource to produce 2/3 opposite model in the same category. The french knonw in WWI than they didn't have this king choice and they planned all the production to force standart.
Cavalery want a light "cavalery tank" and Infantery want a "light infantery tank" and you buy both two model? They know they have some production weakness so the HQ can force the cavalery or the infantery to get the same model. The production would have been quicker and cheaper... Even if they choose the H-35 for both side would have been the price cheaper than R35+H35...
When ou look at the french HQ plan, it was all turn to defensive war with an economical attrition of the german in mind, letting time to the allies to fully deploy and take advantage. With such aim in mind they should have limit their model.
Edit: About the different founding issue, i'm not an expert but both the cavaelry and infantery are under the "Army" funding and command so they have to follow the Hq will and didn't get independant funding.
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From Madners post:
One interesting thing about the SOMUA S-35's successor design, the SOMUA S-40. Apart from a slightly wider hull, redesigned running gear and new 220 hp engine, so did it also have a new larger turret. It doesnt look like its large enough for a 2 man crew, but the new turret design could have been made, to make room for a radio.
SOMUA S-40 in the middel, SAu 40 SP-gun to the right and the standard SOMUA S-35 to the left.
Mr.Penguin
One interesting thing about the SOMUA S-35's successor design, the SOMUA S-40. Apart from a slightly wider hull, redesigned running gear and new 220 hp engine, so did it also have a new larger turret. It doesnt look like its large enough for a 2 man crew, but the new turret design could have been made, to make room for a radio.
SOMUA S-40 in the middel, SAu 40 SP-gun to the right and the standard SOMUA S-35 to the left.
Mr.Penguin
Originally posted by Mr.Penguin
From Madners post:
One interesting thing about the SOMUA S-35's successor design, the SOMUA S-40. Apart from a slightly wider hull, redesigned running gear and new 220 hp engine, so did it also have a new larger turret. It doesnt look like its large enough for a 2 man crew, but the new turret design could have been made, to make room for a radio.
SOMUA S-40 in the middel, SAu 40 SP-gun to the right and the standard SOMUA S-35 to the left.
Mr.Penguin
About the overstressed tank leader, it seem the S40 and B1-ter were intended with a better place for the loader crew man (wich in the two case wasnt in the turret but in the hull).
B1-bis already get 47mm and the 75mm guns a crew loader and a radio "morse guy".
The S-35 get a radio and pilot and the gunner was tank leader. the loading didn't seem to be a problem for the leader, the tuurret being well think. the S40 seem to get a wider turret mostly to simplify the production and lower the turret cost. The better "breathing" space for the tank leader was an appreciate bonus.
It seems the main real modern lack of both design was mostly the radio. With a good, modern radio the two main tank would have been far most efficient and their tank leader much less stress.
The economical problem is really a shame too. First S35 was produce in 35, the first B1 bis in 1938. Both should have get less industrial production problem if a less diversified tank production was planned. Mostly a minister and HQ failure again fmpov.