dhs, ect- offtopic

[Jamey]

Yeah, that's not unbalanced. They're just more powerful.

I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of unbalanced. In my book, anything that makes many of the units in a wargame useless (i.e. Clan to-hit bonuses negating all speed based units) is unbalanced.

 

[Delta Assault]

I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of unbalanced. In my book, anything that makes many of the units in a wargame useless (i.e. Clan to-hit bonuses negating all speed based units) is unbalanced.

Okey doke.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

...Mods, feel free to move this to Bickering. I'm out.

We are all so far beyond bickering, they had to invent a "...etc- offtopic" thread! : )

 

[Jaidenhaze]

How's that a lie? I replied to your points. The ComGuards raking an entire Cluster with weaponsfire as they storm out of a forest fire is not zellbrigen. That is not declared one-vs-one combat. Where is the lie?

The real lie is perpetuating some sort of foolish idea that the ComGuards adhered to zellbrigen when they won the Battle of Tukayyid. Which, by the way, was won with underhanded tactics by Anastasius Focht that were inspired by the previous Inner Sphere victories at Wolcott and Luthien that also didn't use zellbrigen.

There was never a line about ComGuards adhering to Zellbrigen. Sorry but you misremember. It was off the table from the start. Please quote me exactly where in a Sourcebook or novel youve got that from. Because its wrong.

BTW no sarcasm, i really want to know if there is something i got wrong in my BT articles.

 

[Delta Assault]

There was never a line about ComGuards adhering to Zellbrigen. Sorry but you misremember. It was off the table from the start. Please quote me exactly where in a Sourcebook or novel youve got that from. Because its wrong.

BTW no sarcasm, i really want to know if there is something i got wrong in my BT articles.

[Mod edit: See below] Tnarien stated that the ComGuards adhered to zellbrigen:

At Tukayyid, the Inner Sphere fought according to the technical rules of Zellbrigen. The problem the Clans faced is that their enemies used tactics that, while not technically breaching Zellbrigen, nonethless exploited the way that the Clans deployed and utilized their forces: most notably the kind of death by a thousand cuts tactics that worked on Luthien. The Inner Sphere bled the Clans dry of ammunition and supplies, weakening them and creating the circumstances of their eventual defeat. While infuriating, without an explicit breach of Zellbrigen's tenets the Clans were honor bound to adhere to the Truce they bid on.

That was what I was replying to. Obviously, the sourcebooks and novels never stated that they adhered to zellbrigen at Tukayyid. That would be crazy.

 

[Havamal]

We are all so far beyond bickering, they had to invent a "...etc- offtopic" thread! : )

^Sigh, yep.




Greetings Mechwarriors

I think this illustrates why forum staff usually step in Before this occurs like clockwork, and also why this topic usually ends with a request to please avoid opinion spamming.
However, I had anyway elected to split this derailment tangent off into its own thread as a opportunity for constructive dialogue to occur even on an edgy topic, as so often requested... Thus I'll take some responsibility here.


At this point I'd like to emphasise: If community members see questionable posts PLEASE use the Report feature. This allows Forum staff to de-escalate friction thus avoiding derailments by friction and flaming. Please do NOT reply to disrespect, aggression, or flamebaiting as this instead Escalates disrespect, aggression, friction, and flaming.

I understand that good intentions are usually the culprit for community members holding out and not reporting, as are normal and natural emotions the culprit for this kind of discussion oscillating inadvertently out of hand. But we see that despite how annoying it can seem to have a Mod intervene, mitigating the extremes that lead to derailment is our only goal. In this we require the assistance of the community so that we can help the community stay the close knit constructive place that it has always been. You are all an amazing group and I'm honored to volunteer to serve you all here, I wouldn't do so if I didn't really believe that. So please, help us to help you;

Please use the Report feature.
Please dont reply to friction or flamebait in kind.
Please dont post AT others, rather post topically towards discussion.
Please dont post snark, disrespect, incivility, or out of hand dismissiveness: Rather reserve the right to agree to disagree.
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The community is not a competition. The devs don't pay attention to attempted demonstrations of interlocutor skills or to volume bandwagoning. They do read for interesting and constructive positive discussions though.

Please endeavor to keep these requests in mind moving forward.

Some posts have experienced Jump drive malfunctions to the Far Country be used as nesting materials by the locals. Please be patient with forum staff in the event that partly constructive posts get caught in the Jump field. But it is difficult to draw a clean quarantine line around friction without inevitably at some point exercising "diplomacy of the knife": [this incomplete thing]- it is finished because it ends here.

Please carry on Respectfully.
Thank you as always.

 

[GenTask]

Any AC below a Gauss/AC20 just wasn't worth taking in CBT.

Perhaps in your experience, but not for mine.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

A great example of HBS getting it right ~ 45-damage, AC-5+++

 

[Jaidenhaze]

How many bucks you care to bet that the meta for this list of tech will boil down to MLAS boating? And then we'll be 'saved' from this stale meta by being asked to buy lostech & clan tech.

There is a lot of your post which i disagree with but i think this is the most interesting. Thats a really good question. I think the power of Medium Laser depends on Double Heat Sinks in a Engine. But in BT we have only 10 SHS. There are better weapons. SRm4 for example:

To math a bit:

Internal HS: 10 - Dissipation: 30 Heat per round
Any more SHS: Dissipation: 3 Heat per round

ML: 25 Dmg, 10 Heat, 1 Ton
SRM4: 32 Dmg, 8 Heat, 2 Tons + Ammo

Just imagine a theoretical Mech of 55 Tons, which can mount either 5 SRM4 (Kintaro 18) or a random number of ML. A 55t Mech with 5/8/x Movement has 17 Tons of Podspace with nearly full armor.

The Kintaro 18 can mount 5 SRM4 which do 160 Dmg, have 13 SHS which are 39 Heat Dissipation, while generating only 40. He has 3-4 Tons of Ammo and/or 2 Jump Jets.

To do the same damage we need ~6.4 ML - so lets say 6. The first 3 are free, since they can be used without problems thank to the engine heat sinks. Any more will need 3.3 Single Heat Sinks. With 3 more ML, we need 10 SHS. We are at 13 Tons compared to 16 with that Loadout. I think here it depends on the amount of Crits you can get with SRM. And if you have access to a 6 E Mech. Because we know the Kintaro 18 is fairly common. But we did not see a single Medium with more then 3 Energy.

We now use 70t Mech, lets take an Archer or a Grasshopper. With 28t of podspace we could have up to 7 SRM4 on an Archer, with 5t Ammo and 19 SHS to make it heat neutral. That is 224 Dmg. To reach that amount of damage with ML we need 9 ML, which cant be supported by a single Mech, but lets assume you could.

9 ML need 30 Heat Sinks, you get 10 at the start, meaning 29 Tons of stuff (20t SHS, 9t ML). That would be a tight fit, since you dont have enough space. But even with only 8 ML and 27 SHS, its a total of 25t, which would leave room for Jump Jets.

TLDR:
Math changes with Double Heat Sinks and + or ++ weapons, as well as with available Hardpoints. But ML are not strictly better then everything else, especially SRM4 give them a run for their money.

 

[President Jyrgunkarrd]

My memory is fuzzy on the topic, but I *think* MLAS boating was considered most efficient (it was definitely the go-to TT meta) because of ammo explosions (also, the math may have been more favorable to MLAS in TT).

Like, you could squeeze more damage out of SRMs or some AC/5 builds, but MLAS would win in a protracted series of games because the MLAS boats didn't have ammo that could inadvertently cook-off and kill the CT.

EDIT: Sorry, 'efficient' is not the correct term. 'Consistent'.

 

[Jaidenhaze]

This wont be a problem here since the rules changed a lot and we didnt see exploding Ammo from Overheat once. But they can be destroyed by damage.

I think its best if we approach this set of rules as completely separate. A couple of weapon configurations (as the BJ1s 2 AC2) are not SO MUCH MORE better. Their damage got buffed by 12.5x which is still the same as a mere ML, but they dont do much heat and have a lot of range. With the available Hardpoints, where is much which could be effective.

For my personal taste, ML are still to strong. Some mechs are probably fine ML boats. SL could be 15 Dmg, ML could be 20. A Large Laser is only 40, but the extra range doesnt justify his weight and heat.

We have to see where we end up

PS: To turn it back to the original Question about DLC: There has to be a lot of open design space right now so a potential 3050, 3067 or 3075 Weapon Update wont be hindered. Its really interesting to see how Jordan will change the Math of Clan and upgraded IS Weapons (ER, Ultra, LBX) with this new set of rules.

 

[Jamey]

To do the same damage we need ~6.4 ML - so lets say 6. The first 3 are free, since they can be used without problems thank to the engine heat sinks. Any more will need 3.3 Single Heat Sinks. With 3 more ML, we need 10 SHS. We are at 13 Tons compared to 16 with that Loadout. I think here it depends on the amount of Crits you can get with SRM. And if you have access to a 6 E Mech. Because we know the Kintaro 18 is fairly common. But we did not see a single Medium with more then 3 Energy.

The canonical ML boat is the HBK-4P Hunchback, which stock mounts 8 ML, 1 SL, and 23 HS. In BATTLETECH, that translates to 80 heat generated (without the SL) and 69 heat sunk, so +11 heat per Alpha Strike. That is a 200 damage Alpha Strike which can be fired for several consecutive turns.