dhs, ect- offtopic

[Packrat]

I would have a lot less of a problem with altering DHS if they didn't already pump up the heat for 3025 energy weapons to in some cases almost as much as the ER versions of those weapons. This doesn't give HBS much room for tweaking the heat of advanced weapons to keep them and the stock mechs that use them viable without essentially invalidating all the 3025 energy weapons even harder than they were in TT.

 

[Tnarien]

Nonsense. Game rules get updated. That's how they evolve. There's no moral judgement cast on the players for using older rule sets.

If there were, beta testers would be the most accursed people on the planet.

There’s a fundamental difference between “we are updating the game rules” and “this thing was hella broken for years, I’m going to fix it and I don’t care about the consequences”.

For better or worse, DHS functionality is what decades of BattleTech have been built around. You don’t change that without massive collateral damage.

At this point about the only way to do so is a T4 update that obsoletes everything and unifies the techbase to a new level.

 

[Delta Assault]

Having an unbalanced game will also alienate players.

Now this, I don't see. The Clans are supposed to be superior and have more powerful technology and weapons. That's the whole point of the Clan Invasion. It threw everything completely upside down and caused a huge impact in the universe. That was a good thing!

It's not unbalanced, it's just that the forces have differences in their units. In WWII, a Tiger tank typically required 5 or 6 Shermans to gang up on it and flank it to win. A 6 to 1 ratio. The Clan vs Inner Sphere ratio isn't even that bad. I don't see anything wrong with a WWII tabletop game recreating that ratio and allowing the Tiger to be superior. It's just having factions be different.

I mean, you can call it unbalanced if you think an Inner Sphere Mech should perform as well, ton-for-ton, as a Clan Mech. Then I guess it's unbalanced. But that's not what you'd want for a Clan vs Inner Sphere conflict. The whole point is pitting superior numbers with weak inferior tech vs inferior numbers of superior tech. That's the dynamic that the Clan arrival brought.

 

[Tnarien]

I would have a lot less of a problem with altering DHS if they didn't already pump up the heat for 3025 energy weapons to in some cases almost as much as the ER versions of those weapons. This doesn't give HBS much room for tweaking the heat of advanced weapons to keep them and the stock mechs that use them viable without essentially invalidating all the 3025 energy weapons even harder than they were in TT.

Exactly. The end result is either a relative return to the proportional differences of existing T2/T3 units (ie the numbers are different but everything interacts exactly the same way) or...everything breaks.

 

[Fox the Apprentice]

[...]
I mean, you can call it unbalanced if you think an Inner Sphere Mech should perform as well, ton-for-ton, as a Clan Mech.
[...]

When did I ask for this? Please quote me so I may fix it.

I've only asked for the tech to be better balanced. Please don't put words in my mouth.

To clarify: It's OK for Clan tech to be superior IFF it does not break game balance. The game already has unbalanced sides - the AI can have a lot more tonnage than our 4 mechs.

 

[Delta Assault]

When did I ask for this? Please quote me so I may fix it.

I've only asked for the tech to be better balanced. Please don't put words in my mouth.

To clarify: It's OK for Clan tech to be superior IFF it does not break game balance. The game already has unbalanced sides - the AI can have a lot more tonnage than our 4 mechs.

Why would Clan tech break game balance? I already played through MechCommander Gold many years ago. I was IS fighting Clan Smoke Jaguar forces. Game balance seemed fine. It was a great campaign. Everything worked.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I would have a lot less of a problem with altering DHS if they didn't already pump up the heat for 3025 energy weapons to in some cases almost as much as the ER versions of those weapons. This doesn't give HBS much room for tweaking the heat of advanced weapons to keep them and the stock mechs that use them viable without essentially invalidating all the 3025 energy weapons even harder than they were in TT.

I wouldn't imagine anything must be set in stone right now. The main focus is probably getting the guns to "feel right" and that can change as the game evolved and gets expansions. For all my critical complaints of HBS... I still think they're doing it right at a core level. This game will be the gateway to the franchise for a ton of people that have never seen it before or didn't like the old school rules.

It will work, just give them time.

 

[Fox the Apprentice]

Why would Clan tech break game balance? I already played through MechCommander Gold many years ago. I was IS fighting Clan Smoke Jaguar forces. Game balance seemed fine. It was a great campaign. Everything worked.

Because we can only control a lance. Therefore 4 of our mechs need to be able to take on at least one enemy clan mech.

Currently, CBT clans are powerful enough that I don't feel the average player will reliable defeat a clan assault with only 4 IS mechs to choose from.

 

[Tnarien]

Why would Clan tech break game balance?

Because the primary limiting factor on clan tech, notably the zellbrigen code of conduct, is not something easily translateable to black and white rules.

 

[Delta Assault]

Because we can only control a lance. Therefore 4 of our mechs need to be able to take on at least one enemy clan mech.

Currently, CBT clans are powerful enough that I don't feel the average player will reliable defeat a clan assault with only 4 IS mechs to choose from.

4 IS Assault Mechs can definitely focus fire and take out a Clan Assault Mech. That does not seem to be an issue to me. And by the time they do the Clan Invasion, whether it be in an expansion pack or a full fledged sequel, there's no guarantee that there'll still be that 4 Mech limit. They might open it up to 6 or 8 units by then. Who knows.

And obviously, they're going to tune things for the fact that we only have a certain limited number of units and resources to work with. And I think we've already seen this in the gameplay streams. Already, it's apparent to me that there's a lot less happening in a specific mission than in a MechCommander mission, because MC allowed for repair items like Mechbays to help the player recover so more enemies could be thrown at them. There's no repair capability in this BattleTech, so you don't see nearly as many enemies in these missions.

 

[Delta Assault]

Because the primary limiting factor on clan tech, notably the zellbrigen code of conduct, is not something easily translateable to black and white rules.

I was actually thinking about this the other day, and it seemed like a simple enough mechanic. The AI Clan Mechs use zellbrigen and target individual mechs of yours (maybe based on tonnage similarity, who knows), while your lance focus fires one of their Mechs down. That gives a huge advantage to you as the IS player.

Maybe they could code it so that they throw away zellbrigen after a certain number of turns after you blatantly break it. This gives the player a limited cap on how much you can exploit the AI's honor.

 

[FrostflyPrime]

4 IS Assault Mechs can definitely focus fire and take out a Clan Assault Mech. That does not seem to be an issue to me. And by the time they do the Clan Invasion, whether it be in an expansion pack or a full fledged sequel, there's no guarantee that there'll still be that 4 Mech limit. They might open it up to 6 or 8 units by then. Who knows.

And obviously, they're going to tune things for the fact that we only have a certain limited number of units and resources to work with. And I think we've already seen this in the gameplay streams. Already, it's apparent to me that there's a lot less happening in a specific mission than in a MechCommander mission, because MC allowed for repair items like Mechbays to help the player recover so more enemies could be thrown at them. There's no repair capability in this BattleTech, so you don't see nearly as many enemies in these missions.

sure 4 IS assault mechs can kill a clan assault mech...but 4 Clan assault mechs will kill 2 IS assault mechs and still have heat left for round 2.

Clans were ALWAYS overpowered and they did a lot of damage to battletech. Double heat sinks Did just as much damage. The balance of the game was ruined, thats why so many players like(this does not mean exclusively) to play the 3025 era. And if you listen to the Q&As was at least part of the reason why this time period was selected for this game.

clans only work when you artificially limit them. When the clans fight like an army and not duelist the IS has no shot.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

The Clans were never meant to balance 1v1 against the Inner Sphere.

The introduction of the Clans presents the classic dialectic between Quality verses Quantity.

In this case Clan Quality verses Inner Sphere Quantity. It is not as straight-up as balancing Inner Sphere against Inner Sphere, but I have always found that it presented just as much Big Stompy FUN.

 

[AngunThule]

The Clans were never meant to balance 1v1 against the Inner Sphere.

The introduction of the Clans presents the classic dialectic between Quality verses Quantity.

In this case Clan Quality verses Inner Sphere Quantity. It is not as straight-up as balancing Inner Sphere against Inner Sphere, but I have always found that it presented just as much Big Stompy FUN.

Agree - IS vs Clan is not supposed to be balanced, nor should it ever be.

Since Clans formed in 2807, then they spent 242 yrs focusing on military tech (weapons, mech designs, DHS's !!!).
While the IS focused on killing each others Mech factories and Tech Centers, also ComStar made a concerted effort over that time to assassinate scientists and keep Lostech.... lost...

The Clans continued on, Clan vs Clan warfare existed, but they didn't destroy each others Technology. In fact, some Clans were taken over (merged) by other Clans via battles/duels to obtain new tech developed by another Clan.

Its part of the Lore of the Battle Tech Universe, frankly changing it because it's "Not Fair", boo hoo , is absurd.

Now, if there was a mission versus original Comstar Mechs (Star League Era weapons), you could see some Lostech salvage potentially. Still a tough fight !

 

[Tnarien]

I was actually thinking about this the other day, and it seemed like a simple enough mechanic. The AI Clan Mechs use zellbrigen and target individual mechs of yours (maybe based on tonnage similarity, who knows), while your lance focus fires one of their Mechs down. That gives a huge advantage to you as the IS player.

Maybe they could code it so that they throw away zellbrigen after a certain number of turns after you blatantly break it. This gives the player a limited cap on how much you can exploit the AI's honor.

Here's the thing: unless you're going to build in a pre-battle bidding system, what you've just described is an explicit violation of zellbrigen. Multiple units engaging a single enemy, unless explicitly negotiated beforehand, will result in only one outcome: sidelined Clan mechs storming the battlefield and slaughtering you.

 

[Panpiper]

In the original tabletop rules, long before double heat sinks, XL engines and the like, it was my experience that combat took bleeping forever. Maneuvers gave mechs sufficient evasion that the probablility of hitting other mechs with weapons was very low. A nine on two die six was a halfway decent chance back then. Playing out a fight took many hours as weapons missed over and over, and when they did hit, they inflicted very little damage relative to what mechs were armored with.

When double heat sinks and XL engines entered the game, the effective firepower of mechs doubled, and that meant that instead of needing five hours to resolve a fight, we could do it in two and a half. In my opinion, shared by my friends at the time, the game was vastly improved as a result.

 

[Delta Assault]

Here's the thing: unless you're going to build in a pre-battle bidding system, what you've just described is an explicit violation of zellbrigen. Multiple units engaging a single enemy, unless explicitly negotiated beforehand, will result in only one outcome: sidelined Clan mechs storming the battlefield and slaughtering you.

What sidelined Clan mechs? What are you talking about? Do you remember playing MechCommander Gold? Where were those sidelined Smoke Jaguar mechs charging the battlefield when you broke zellbrigen? What are you on about?

 

[Jaidenhaze]

Ill try to explain. Within the rules of Clans there is something like Bidding. You only use as much force to take a target as you need. Because waste is very frowned upon within the Clans.

Lets say you are a Clan Commander and have 1 Cluster worth of stuff (5 Trinarys - 1 Trinary are 15 Mechs) . You want to take all the minerals of an ore mine on a Planet. You fly there and say, you want to take it. The Defender responds with "I will defend with (everything i have or a specific amount - in this case) my single Binary (10 Mechs)."

The attacking force now will not use their 5 Trinarys, they will bid under themselfs to see how gets the honor of fighting. At the start they are bidding their first bid. Normally something like their Trinary if it is lighter. If a single commander of a trinary thinks he only needs 8 Mechs, he can reduce his bid.

When he fights with a smaller bid than his opening and hes facing a loss, he can call down stuff from his previous bids, but at a loss of honor. If, for example, the Garrison Commander uses not only his Binary but more - hidden explosives, multiple mechs firing upon one (breaking the rule of Zellbrigen) or doing other unfair things, the field commander or unit CO can call down every single Mech at his disposal to wipe out the enemy for his unclanmanlike behavior.

 

[Daneiel Adder]

The Clans were never meant to balance 1v1 against the Inner Sphere.

The introduction of the Clans presents the classic dialectic between Quality verses Quantity.

In this case Clan Quality verses Inner Sphere Quantity. It is not as straight-up as balancing Inner Sphere against Inner Sphere, but I have always found that it presented just as much Big Stompy FUN.

Sadly people forgoting exactly trhat - how much cost you a simple Adder , what is the BV for the prime config and now compare to the monster Stalker 3F .
How it can be an 35t mech cost you almost as Assault and that little mech even have bigger BV

 

[Jaidenhaze]

Because cERPPCs are very inflated. And they can be very strong, but the Adder doesnt have enough DHS to support them. I personally like the LRM Adders more. Adder A with 2 LRM20s has 100 BV less then the Stalker 3F, but would probably beat it on an empty field. It has enough Speed to stay outside of the Stalkers weapons, and it has double the LRM Firepower. It is crazy if you think about it. A small 35 Ton Mech can beat one of the biggest Mechs the IS can field.