dhs, ect- offtopic

[TKaz84]

HBS seems currently to be of the opinion that (for a future in-success expansion) in-engine heat sinks are always singles (which isn't canon), and that external heat sinks can be either single or double but not mixed (which is current canon). This may of course change, but it also reins in a lot of the power creep that DHS brings to the table.

During one of the streams I asked Randall Bills what he would change if he could go back and reintroduce the clans, and I remember him responding that if he could change anything he would remove DHS from engines. If HBS is going that route that's fine by me and give me hope for a future Clan expansion

 

[stjobe]

True. Still could be thought of as a heavy PPC, or a precursor that heavy PPC technology was based off of, or really anything else our imaginations come up with. Game graphics may have come a long way since text based adventures but they are still just tools to excite the imagination

Well, yes sure, if you want a PPC+ or PPC++ to mean "Heavy PPC" in your own game, by all means go ahead and do so. But the Heavy PPC in the canon BattleTech universe is a wholly different weapon than the standard PPC - it is first introduced in 3067, is three tons heavier, takes one more crit slot, and generates 50% more heat than a standard PPC. Of course, it does 50% more damage as well.

The plus notation in this game denotes manufacturer differences, with a PPC+ having a single bonus over a regular PPC (might be more accurate, or do more damage, or something), and a PPC++ has two bonuses, and so on. I don't at the moment recall if we have been told how far the plus-rating goes, if it goes to two or if there's weapons with even more pluses.

During one of the streams I asked Randall Bills what he would change if he could go back and reintroduce the clans, and I remember him responding that if he could change anything he would remove DHS from engines. If HBS is going that route that's fine by me and give me hope for a future Clan expansion

I agree, and I seem to recall Jordan expressing similar concerns. Personally, one of the reasons that 3025 is my favourite era is that the later eras had so much power creep that they completely invalidated tech from previous eras, making me question why the standard 3025 'Mech even existed in 3049 or 3050. Much of that power creep is attributable to double heat sinks raising the heat bar sky-high - to the point of completely removing heat as a game mechanic, if you used DHS with tier-1 weapons.

 

[Delta Assault]

During one of the streams I asked Randall Bills what he would change if he could go back and reintroduce the clans, and I remember him responding that if he could change anything he would remove DHS from engines. If HBS is going that route that's fine by me and give me hope for a future Clan expansion

This is such a problem though. Because the Clan designs were all designed around DHS in engines. I mean, the Warhawk Prime already runs hot as hell in TT as it is. Same for the Nova Prime and Hellbringer Prime. If you remove all the DHS from the engine, it's going to ruin those classic designs. I mean... can you imagine a Summoner Prime (the definition of a cool-running Clan Omni) that now runs hot? It'd be a travesty.

Or are you now going to reconfigure the weapons loadouts as well to account for the reduced heatsink capacity? Which will again screw with people's perceptions of these classic designs.

It's a crummy situation in either case.

 

[Lardaltef]

Well with Jordan involved I wouldn't be surprised if some of the technical stuff and construction rules are being rewritten.

 

[Tnarien]

During one of the streams I asked Randall Bills what he would change if he could go back and reintroduce the clans, and I remember him responding that if he could change anything he would remove DHS from engines. If HBS is going that route that's fine by me and give me hope for a future Clan expansion

While I understand this position, the downstream implications are enormous.

 

[Havamal]

While I understand this position, the downstream implications are enormous.

You can't sneeze in this IP without enormous down stream implications... though that doesn't mean some things shouldn't receive a critical scan either. Though we want things to be recognizable too. Sigh. Glad it's not my job to try and please everyone.

 

[Tnarien]

You can't sneeze in this IP without enormous down stream implications... though that doesn't mean some things shouldn't receive a critical scan either. Though we want things to be recognizable too. Sigh. Glad it's not my job.

You don’t get implications much bigger than breaking effectively every T2 and T3 mech.

 

[Exemplar Voss]

This is such a problem though. Because the Clan designs were all designed around DHS in engines. I mean, the Warhawk Prime already runs hot as hell in TT as it is. Same for the Nova Prime and Hellbringer Prime. If you remove all the DHS from the engine, it's going to ruin those classic designs. I mean... can you imagine a Summoner Prime (the definition of a cool-running Clan Omni) that now runs hot? It'd be a travesty.

Or are you now going to reconfigure the weapons loadouts as well to account for the reduced heatsink capacity? Which will again screw with people's perceptions of these classic designs.

It's a crummy situation in either case.

It's true already. The heat changes affect several mechs more than a lot of people seem to have noticed. Even classic dual PPC designs like the K2 suffer a notable performance change.

The awesome barely covers two PPCs with its heat sinks, not 'almost three' as the design suggests.

 

[Lardaltef]

Well if it is breaking them they probably needed to be broken.

 

[Delta Assault]

It's true already. The heat changes affect several mechs more than a lot of people seem to have noticed. Even classic dual PPC designs like the K2 suffer a notable performance change.

The awesome barely covers two PPCs with its heat sinks, not 'almost three' as the design suggests.

That was definitely the case during the beta, which I spoke out about. Of course, we haven't seen any sign of the Awesome in Cohh's streams, so I haven't anything to say about it at the moment as it's still unclear.

 

[Tnarien]

Well if it is breaking them they probably needed to be broken.

That’s not a rabbit hole you want to go down. The end result is an unambiguous “you played the game wrong so sod off” to a huge portion of the player base.

 

[Fox the Apprentice]

This is such a problem though. Because the Clan designs were all designed around DHS in engines.
[...[

So were the later IS mechs. Let's not make this a Clan-vs-IS argument.

The DHS needed reigned in. I'm glad that HBS is aware, and is working on finding a balance. If changing weapon values for later tech is needed in order to keep everything (including the stock clan mechs) viable, they will do it - I know this because it was already done with ACs. Any AC below a Gauss/AC20 just wasn't worth taking in CBT.

 

[Fox the Apprentice]

That’s not a rabbit hole you want to go down. The end result is an unambiguous “you played the game wrong so sod off” to a huge portion of the player base.

The end result is a "the game was wrong so we fixed it". The players didn't play anything wrong, nor does this rabbit hole imply that.

Let's let HBS balance the tech, and worry about how they do it once we have reason to suspect something is wrong.

 

[Delta Assault]

Anything below a Gauss/AC20 just wasn't worth taking in CBT.

Huh? The Clan ERPPC and LPL were way better weapons.

 

[Fox the Apprentice]

Huh? The Clan ERPPC and LPL were way better weapons.

Sorry, I meant "any AC". I'll edit my post.

 

[Tnarien]

The end result is a "the game was wrong so we fixed it". The players didn't play anything wrong, nor does this rabbit hole imply that.

That is exactly what it implies. If you re-define the way a unit functions because it’s doing something you don’t want it to you’re saying that unit was wrong, and that the players who used it were wrong for playing it.

Changing unit functionality after the fact is a quagmire you simply don’t walk out of without alienating players. And the corner that HBS has painted themselves into with regards to T2 and T3 tech is one that concerns me greatly.

 

[kvetcha]

That is exactly what it implies. If you re-define the way a unit functions because it’s doing something you don’t want it to you’re saying that unit was wrong, and that the players who used it were wrong for playing it.

Nonsense. Game rules get updated. That's how they evolve. There's no moral judgement cast on the players for using older rule sets.

If there were, beta testers would be the most accursed people on the planet.

 

[Fox the Apprentice]

That is exactly what it implies. If you re-define the way a unit functions because it’s doing something you don’t want it to you’re saying that unit was wrong, and that the players who used it were wrong for playing it.

Changing unit functionality after the fact is a quagmire you simply don’t walk out of without alienating players. And the corner that HBS has painted themselves into with regards to T2 and T3 tech is one that concerns me greatly.

HBS has already changed unit functionality. Read the above comments on the Awesome for one example.

Having an unbalanced game will also alienate players.

And no, players are not wrong for playing mechs that were the meta at the time. That's not at all what it implies. I don't get upset when the gun I use in <insert online FPS here> gets nerfed, and it certainly doesn't make me wrong for using it. Why would I ever think that? The same applies to BT.

 

[stjobe]

You don’t get implications much bigger than breaking effectively every T2 and T3 mech.

If you rein in DHS by making engine heat sinks single-only, you probably need to adjust heat values on some (or even all) of the tier-2 weapons also. Which is not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself.

One thing that I seem to remember Jordan talking about that he felt he would do differently today was that Clan equipment weren't better than the old tier-1 equipment in just one area, it was better in every area; lighter, cooler, smaller, more damage, easier to hit with, etc. all at the same time; that probably wasn't necessary to give the Clans the "fearsome invader from beyond known space" feel, to me it felt like power creep for the sake of power creep.

 

[wundergoat]

That was definitely the case during the beta, which I spoke out about. Of course, we haven't seen any sign of the Awesome in Cohh's streams, so I haven't anything to say about it at the moment as it's still unclear.

Keep in mind that the heat revamp isn’t just lower relative sinking. It is also a much bigger and penalty free overheat range coupled with mechanics that make taking a turn to cool off much less punishing. For non-DHS mechs, I feel like the heat balance works well.

Clantech and t2 weapons can be rebalanced around the new DHS, as a lot of the heat issues came from ER energy weapons being hot enough to mandate double sinks. Tuning heat down will help a lot.

The mechs that will get hosed are the ones that mounted DHS so they could shoot even more t1 energy weapons. Maybe making DHS also increase heat thresholds might help? That way the weapons would be useable but the mechs would have to cool down more often.