Dharmic religions improvements

[vyshan]

So India and the Dharmic religions are fun and I rather like them. Still I think there could be more done for them. So here are some thoughts on how to improve them.
Jainism
So the first thing is that all the Jain sect's clergy should be monks or nuns in the case of the Svetembara sect. From what I have read for Jainism, the monks were the priests so by default it should be required for people to be a monk to be a clergy. Personally what I would do is create a new tenet called Aparigraha. Aparigraha would function a bit like a combined form of Ascetisim and Monasticism. So all three Jain sects would have Aparigraha and Dharmic Pacifism and then a third tenet of their choice, so the Digambara can have Ritual Hospitality. the Svetambara can have vows of poverty, and the Yapaniya can have Consolamentum .

There is also the fact that Jain monks are required to move from temple to temple. Though wiki does mention monks who did not do this called Yati which were common apparently among the Jains in Rajasthan. While we can abstract this out with assuming that either your jain head monk is a Yati or does the wandering in a specific area that you know where to tend to, the wandering courtier system could implement this were jain monks would wander around India from place to place, particularly zealous monks. This would make Jainism IMO a bit unique where you have to contend with wandering monks. So your clergy could just go up and leave one day.

Then there is the Yapaniya faith. Currently it has the tenet of natural primtivism which doesn't seem to fit for them based on what I read doing a google search. They seem to bear similarities with the Digamabara sect and would merge into the Digamabara. So what I would do is give them the special doctrine Naked Priests and replace natural primitivism with Consolamentum following the first paragraph concept. Also to be naked for both the Digamabara and the Yapaniya sect you should have become a monk.

Finally the council position for the council Chaplin is Upadhaya/Upadhyanai, Purohit, Rajpurohit, and Marajpurohit. While the first set of titles is fine as it refers to a teacher and was the second position to the Acharya who is the head of a Jain monastic order. Its the other titles that I don't feel fit Jainism as they refer to specific castes in India. So instead of Purohit I would use the title Acharya. Instead of Rajpurohit I would go with Singhai and then instead of Marajpurohit I would go with Savaai Singhai.

I am also not sure if Jainism should be as wide spread as it is where it is basically the religion of almost all of India at game start. I think that it could be reduced a bit, while the other sects of Hinduism spread out a bit. Plus with two other sects added some more provinces would have to go to them.

Hinduism

The first thing I see wrong with Hinduism is the lack of the Suryaism. In both start dates this denomination was still around but it is not IG. It was a denomination with more vedic influences and focused on worshiping Surya from what I can tell. Still its absence is surprising, so this denomination should still be in.

Another sect that should be in, though very much in decline, would be the Shrautism which wiki mentions as being more vedic inspired and following the tradition of Purva-Mimamsa. However wiki describes it still existing during the two start dates and faded by the 13th century.

The medieval era was the height of the Bhakti movement and I believe that should be represented IG some how. There could be events about Poet-Saints, cultural resistance as the bhakti movement spreads across the subcontinent, since a lot of the poets were in the local languages. While there is the Bhakti tenet, the movement was far more encompassing then that from what I have read. So some events for Indian rulers dealing with this movement would be good. Perhaps it could be an innovation for Indian cultures that follow a dharmic faith; I have read that there are similar movements in Buddhism and Jainism.

Shaivism should probably have Esotericism to reflect the fact that Tantric practices developed within that practice.

The religious set up for some of the rulers should be changed a bit. Bhoja of Pratihara should be a Vaishnavite. His coins were minted with symbols of Vishnu, he also took the title of Ādivarāha or first boar. I am not sure about the rest of the Pratihara dynasty but I assume that they should be followers of Vishnu as well. Meanwhile in the land of the Tamil Kings, the rulers should be Shaivites. From what I read, the Chola and the Pandya were strong devotees to Shiva.

Buddhism
Today Therevada is the only surviving representative of the historical early Buddhist schools. However, in 867 some of the early schools are still around and with the concept of the dead faiths, these early schools could be revived. Trying to keep the other schools around would be good and a fun challenge.

Then we got the concept of cultural Buddhism. In game there are two cultural Buddhisms, Ari and Tibetan. However I wonder if that is the case why isn't central asian Buddhism also in that category, since just browsing through wikipedia it looks like Buddhism in Central asia was a mix of different schools of Buddhism not just Mahayana Buddhism though I could be wrong.

As with Jainism the council position for the council Chaplin is Upadhaya/Upadhyanai, Purohit, Rajpurohit, and Marajpurohit and again I feel this doesn't fit Buddhism with possibly the exception of Upadhaya but the others refer to priests not buddhist monastic titles from my understanding. The two current cultural Buddhism should have some unique titles to reflect that such as Ari having Sayadaw and Tibetan having Lama. Though the title should be largely the same across the board for the other schools I think.

I could be wrong but I think Ari Buddhism was still around during 1066 so that while Anawrahta had converted to Therevada Buddhism and begun to enforce therevada orthodoxy on the region, there should be counties that still follow Ari Buddhism in 1066. So your court Chaplain as Pagan would have to do more converting.

Also Buddhist Clergy and court chaplains should be monks or nuns and that they should be bald.

All/Miscellaneous/other
There should be events for the more esoteric practices that existed, namely the various tantric practices which were practiced among Shaivites, Shaktism, and Vajrayana and Tibetan Buddhism. These events could be a cross polination showing the mixing of concepts within the region.

Rulers of Dharmic faiths should be able to support building temples and monasteries of other religions in their empire. Just looking at wikipedia, there are plenty of kings who devoted themselves to Shiva but also supported Jain monasteries and temples to Vishnu. Showing this religious pluralism would be good for the region IMO.




Let me know what you think of these suggestions and what suggestions you have for the Dharmic religions of india.

 

[vyshan]

added the fact that Buddhist clergy should be monks and nuns and they should be bald.

 

[Pied-Noir]

added the fact that Buddhist clergy should be monks and nuns and they should be bald.

Yeah that would definitely be a great addition.

 

[ArVass]

added the fact that Buddhist clergy should be monks and nuns and they should be bald.

I definitely would want an update/expansion on monasticism, which would add monasteries as in-game elements with all the flavour surrounding them, including special clothing and mechanics like these mentioned.

 

[vyshan]

Bumping, added the Shrautism sect and that Jain provinces should be decressed to reflect the various hindu faiths there, not to mention that my suggestions include adding two new hindu faiths.

 

[Videogames]

For the realm priest/chaplain positions in Buddhism, here's what I think the titles should be.

For Ari and Theravada:
Abbot/Sayadaw/Sangharaja/Sangharaja
(You can use the same name for 2 tiers - Orthodox does it, for instance. Maybe you could do Mahasangharaja for empire tier as a made-up term.)

For Mahayana and (Non-Tibetan)Vajrayana I'm less certain. Perhaps:
Abbot/Acharya/Preceptor/Imperial Preceptor

Then for Nangchos:
Khenpo/Lama/Tulku/Tulku
(I like tulku as a term that designates an important reincarnation lineage, but is unspecific enough that it's not limited to a given Tibetan school.)

 

[vyshan]

updated the thread to add:
1.) that Shaivism should have estorecism to reflect that tantra practices developed among this sect.
2.) that the Pratihara should be devoted to Vishnu and the Tamil Kings should be devoted to Shiva.
3.) events for Tantra and other estoeric practices for those that practiced them, so tibetan buddhists and shaivites for example.
4.) all dharmic rulers should be able to support building temples to other sects then just your own, so a devotee to Vishnu building a temple to Shiva for example.

 

[shri]

@vyshan

Surya worship died by the 11th century completely, so can be there in 867 start but not in 1066 start.
If we need to show it in 867 start, then Moolasthana aka modern Multan should have a huge temple of Surya, this is mentioned by Skylax the Greek Admiral in 500 BC and Hueng Tsang in 600 AD (approx) as being a gigantic structure with a moorthi made of pure gold and having 2 large rubies for eyes.

After the conquest of Sindh by the Qasim forces of Islam, the Mandir was desecrated by hanging dead cow flesh in it (a gigantic sacrilege) but not destroyed as it was a source of great income from pilgrims.
It got destroyed in 1026 completely.

The Pratiharas starting as Vaishnava and Tamil Kings as Shaiva and drastic reduction of Jain concentration other than a few large towns of Bharat seems historically the right way to go about it. Further, Jain royalty did not follow the MONASTIC tenet of NUDITY (only in DiGambar), that is purely soft porn.

 

[vyshan]

Surya worship died by the 11th century completely, so can be there in 867 start but not in 1066 start.
If we need to show it in 867 start, then Moolasthana aka modern Multan should have a huge temple of Surya, this is mentioned by Skylax the Greek Admiral in 500 BC and Hueng Tsang in 600 AD (approx) as being a gigantic structure with a moorthi made of pure gold and having 2 large rubies for eyes.

After the conquest of Sindh by the Qasim forces of Islam, the Mandir was desecrated by hanging dead cow flesh in it (a gigantic sacrilege) but not destroyed as it was a source of great income from pilgrims.
It got destroyed in 1026 completely.

When I was looking into the Surya worship I was reading that they survived till the 12th and 13th centuries with the islamic invasions. The locations for Surya worship while it seems to be focused around the Northwest of India which you mentioned, my reading also mentioned Orssia was also a place for Surya worship. Specifically I saw the Konark Sun Temple mentioned as an example of Surya worship.

So I would keep it in both start dates but as it is located in the northwest. So that as the Islamic empires move into India that the faith declines due to the pressure of Islam. The Orssia Suryaite counties would probably last longer but likely convert towards one of the other Hindu faiths as the rulers would not be ruled by those that strictly follow Suryaism. Which I think would reflect the historical development of Suryaism in India if everything played out historically.

The Pratiharas starting as Vaishnava and Tamil Kings as Shaiva and drastic reduction of Jain concentration other than a few large towns of Bharat seems historically the right way to go about it. Further, Jain royalty did not follow the MONASTIC tenet of NUDITY (only in DiGambar), that is purely soft porn.

Currently it is not possible to have the individual provinces that make up a county have different faiths. By this I mean the castle, temple, and city holdings that make up a county. It is something that I requested in another thread as I see it being really useful for India. For if provinces could have separate religions from the county that they are part of then IMO pretty much every county in India would multiple faiths within it. For example a province of 5 counties, 2 empty, and a city, temple, and castle could have the city belonging to the Digamabara Jains, the temple being a monastery dedicated to Vajrayana Buddhism, the Castle following Shaivism, and the two empty provinces clinging to the traditions of the Srauta Brhamans.

Also it would make the conversion in Pagan be more accurate with Ari Buddhism still prevalent throughout the region and then left to the empty holdings before they are converted to more orthodox Theravada Buddhism.

As for Jainism, I agree, though the Yapaniya sect of Jainism seems to follow in the style of the Digambara monks of having naked monks. Not surprising that they would later merge into that sect from what I have read.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Took me longer to get to this but here's a few ideas:

Vegetarianism can be represented as a new doctrine - something that all religions can consider, perhaps a "diet restrictions" kind of doctrine? So by default many religions would just have "no restrictions", Jews will have "kosher" and Muslims "halal" food. But Dharmic and Gnostic faiths (like Manicheism) would have a few options for vegetarianism. There would be strict vegetarianism, where everyone is expected to be vegetarian; cleric vegetarianism, where only clergy or holy people are expected to, though secular rulers can choose to do so; and loose vegetarianism, where it is not required, but characters can choose to be vegetarian. Usually, to be more in line with history and present-day trends, unless required, most AI will not become vegetarian unless if they're zealous or compassionate. Anyways, in game terms this would affect the flavor localization of some events, and for example going on Hunts will lower your piety if you follow a religion with strict vegetarianism for example. Though I do admit I'm not sure how else I could make this more relevant to gameplay mechanics directly.

At the very least, if the devs don't want to go that far and there isn't some kind of gameplay mechanic they could make out of it, there could be a few flavor events about it and a chance to become one if you follow the right religion and get some kind of modifier.

Vegetarian Feasts could be an alternative or a supplement to the above (for instance, as a special decision available to vegetarian religions). I believe it was fairly widespread in East Asia, but perhaps elsewhere too (don't know off the top of my head) even during the medieval period, where rulers who wished to show their patronage of Buddhism would hold lavish feasts that had all vegetarian food.

Translation of Buddhist texts could be an additional minor decision, perhaps a spend some money and get some piety and to a lesser extent prestige sort of deal, or at least some common flavor events for Buddhists. A lot of time and effort was spent patronizing the translation of texts, for more or less missionary work, but also to supposedly gain spiritual merit. It was also a major part of the transmission of Buddhism across various states. For example of the top of my head the Khotanese played an important role in helping translate and provide texts and other guidance for Tibetan Buddhists in the early CK3 era.

Rise of new Buddhist schools/sects within each faith would be a cool feature, but not sure how that would work out (for instance, most of the major schools of Tibetan Buddhism sprung up during this period, there were different sects of Zen Buddhism, etc.) especially since in some cases outside of Tibet it would make absolutely no sense for the rulers in CK3 to be an actual founding figure or leader of such a sect. It could be tied in with any vanilla update that adds in sub-sects/sects of faiths, or religious societies such as the Sufi Orders in Islam or the Franciscan and Dominican Orders in Catholicism, etc.

Nalanda University as a major site of Buddhist learning... the building is already there in the game, but perhaps there could be some events or decisions associated with it. While it's known even in pop history circles that Nalanda was sacked by Turkish raiders in the 13th century, the university had been in decline by then, and it may have possibly survived in a lesser form for a couple centuries after - so perhaps there could be events or decisions revolving around its decline and efforts to patronize or return it to its former glory, if Buddhism revives itself on the Indian subcontinent. At the least, a few events concerning the pilgrims and scholars coming through there might work.

That's all I can think for now, but definitely a lot of good stuff here.

 

[Caeserion]

@vyshan

Surya worship died by the 11th century completely, so can be there in 867 start but not in 1066 start.
If we need to show it in 867 start, then Moolasthana aka modern Multan should have a huge temple of Surya, this is mentioned by Skylax the Greek Admiral in 500 BC and Hueng Tsang in 600 AD (approx) as being a gigantic structure with a moorthi made of pure gold and having 2 large rubies for eyes.

After the conquest of Sindh by the Qasim forces of Islam, the Mandir was desecrated by hanging dead cow flesh in it (a gigantic sacrilege) but not destroyed as it was a source of great income from pilgrims.
It got destroyed in 1026 completely.

The Pratiharas starting as Vaishnava and Tamil Kings as Shaiva and drastic reduction of Jain concentration other than a few large towns of Bharat seems historically the right way to go about it. Further, Jain royalty did not follow the MONASTIC tenet of NUDITY (only in DiGambar), that is purely soft porn.

Saura did not die, it saw a huge decline but they still exist in India. Even so the decline was after the 11th century, under the later Ghaznavid empire which raided deep into India and targeted temples for their wealth, and under the Ghurid empire which outright occupied a lot of Northern India (the Ghaznavids never occupied that much of India but did launch expeditions into it every now and then)