Devs taking stuff from Mods and adding them to updates?

[Robosoldier1]

This whole "complaint" is so stupid. I doubt modders are angry or mad because devs are adding things to the game. If anything it would make them excited because they can develop even better mods with proper coding infrastructure.

The point is not really about the modders in that they are being negatively impacted or that they are even upset about this. As they obviously aren’t.

It’s about what paradox does with the mods and the development of content based around it. People say it’s good cause it’s expanding the game and so on and so forth. I am
Only saying If you have used this stuff for awhile it comes off as lackluster and I see this as a regular trend in different moments of development.

 

[Tacticus101]

I suspect its simply a a matter of numbers. There are far more players with modding knowledge than there are Developers. That means that pretty much every suggestion made by the community is going to appear in a mod well before it appears in an official Patch. Its fairly inevitable, Paradox just cant keep up with the thousands of people who mod and the quantity of ideas that people suggest.

That isnt a bad thing, it lets the Developers get an idea of what works and doesnt and predict the effects changes will have in advance. Then, they can release the more developed system that is more easily programmed and opens tools up for more future modding. It benifits everyone really.


Also, you are getting the reaction you are because your post comes across as a little condescending and rude

 

[elektrizikekswerk]

I am
Only saying If you have used this stuff for awhile it comes off as lackluster and I see this as a regular trend in different moments of development.

I can understand that. But on the other hand there are players like me who - as mentioned before - only play Ironman and therefore cannot use many mods and who are very happy about having them implemented in the game.
And I think with this expansion MtG we are getting both. We get for example fuel and new naval mechanics which mods could only provide in a limited frame (if they could provide it at all). On top we get “dull“ features like motorized artillery. So what's the point?

 

[Robosoldier1]

I suspect its simply a a matter of numbers. There are far more players with modding knowledge than there are Developers. That means that pretty much every suggestion made by the community is going to appear in a mod well before it appears in an official Patch. Its fairly inevitable, Paradox just cant keep up with the thousands of people who mod and the quantity of ideas that people suggest.

That isnt a bad thing, it lets the Developers get an idea of what works and doesnt and predict the effects changes will have in advance. Then, they can release the more developed system that is more easily programmed and opens tools up for more future modding. It benifits everyone really.


Also, you are getting the reaction you are because your post comes across as a little condescending and rude

Sure. Makes sense. I never meant to insinuate its bad, more so its disappointing. Because if they aren't developing for these areas themselves or at least devising it behind the scenes for later, then there prioritizing something else that most of the time is not what I am looking for. Which is why they pluck stuff from mods from time to time. Which they themselves simply plucked from previous HOI iterations. So makes ya think...why some of this stuff didn't even come into play at launch?

I only get angsty at least intentionally is when I bring up content development and how its being molded from what inspirational trends are going on behind the scenes from a direction historical vs Ahistorical sense. Especially when it comes to talking to devs. Mainly for the fact even they often don't seem to have this concrete universal directive of what the game is supposed to adhere to or the direction it's heading in. One dev tells me to just justify on a critical enemy and ignore entirely the rules they laid out and the consequences that come from it (particularly tension). Another Dev tells me in a past forum that Germany loses no matter what so expanding on alternative branches/events to manipulate that is pointless. While a 3rd just now tells me history is just the jumping off point and anything can go because that initial step is apparently the only thing that matters and anything past that can be beyond the pale. Even ignoring the fact Hearts of Irons Facebook page continuously highlights mods including ones on his list. So what am I to expect they "inspire" their approach based on that as well? Who knows.

Which is where we have elements only then trickle in thanks to modders making them prominent amongst the community and for paradox to take notice because there fumbling around with other unnecessary stuff. Overall I got told one thing in the initial marketing campaign, got told another by the time the 2nd DLC rolled and now practically anything is up for grabs. How sporadic of a direction does this game have at this point? I have no idea. But I digress.

 

[Louella]

I like poking at stuff, to find interesting things, and interesting ways of doing stuff. Like I found out that you can attach a night operations bonus to an ace, which allows de-facto night fighter units, which is not really possible in any other way.

I'm happy for other modders to use the tricks I find, so long as they ask me.

One of the mods I made was to give the major countries separate tech trees for tanks, which a lot of people wanted to do. No point in everyone trying to reinvent the wheel.

And I did offer @Bratyn some help a while back, as I'd been looking at making more of the UK colonies into actual countries, so I let bratyn know stuff like the politician names I used.

So I'm happy if things that modders make can get picked up and integrated, because it makes the overall game more enjoyable, I think.

 

[Fulmen]

I did offer @Bratyn some help a while back, as I'd been looking at making more of the UK colonies into actual countries

This is a fun idea only on paper. In practice it's a mess, both visually and gameplay-wise. HoI4 just doesn't have the mechanics to represent sub-states with limited autonomy. Logically it also makes no sense to start representing random protectorates with autonomy only on extremely local civil matters, if even that, when political entities with actual large degrees of autonomy, such as the federal states of the US, are not represented in the game. Nor should they be, not in the current form the game would handle them, where they'd each be their own country within a country.

PDX already added the DEI and Malaya obviously just for Australia's singleplayer alt-history focuses, and RKs to Germany because people wanted them because Darkest Hour had them (made even less sense in that game btw). That's enough silliness by PDX on that matter IMO, no need to clutter the map further.

Btw BlackICE added a bunch of protectorates etc. as countries, so you can check it out there to see if you're actually still keen on the idea after seeing it in-game.

 

[Louella]

Well I started off just wanting to learn how to alter a couple of state borders and regions and things like that, so I could do some things differently if I wanted, and it kind of got out of hand, and I ended up looking at cosmetic tags, and a bunch of other stuff. lol

 

[xtfoster]

If I made a mod and Paradox decided to implement its features into the game I'd be glad.
Firstly it showed that my idea was great - if I got credit for that or not - and secondly it wouldn't be my (free chosen, granted) responsibility anymore to maintain it.

The other thing is that implementing mod's content into the game means for people like me who exclusively play Ironman that they can actually use that “mod“. Otherwise NML* or motorized artillery or specific focus trees would be unavailable to me.

*That one is special, because I still don't like it and would have prefered a more dynamic solution. So it's kind of a bad example but I guess my point is clear.

If you check into it, you would see that PDS would have preferred a different solution as well. They said at the time that they went with the whole 'impassible provinces' (borders actually, but close enough) because they couldn't get the solution they preferred (and were working on for most of that patch) to work, so they kinda had to borrow (and modify because they actually had access to the code) the less elegant (but working) solution produced by the NML.

 

[Secret Master]

Now just to point this out I got no problem Devs taking inspiration from moderators

I think you mean "Modders." While I have some good ideas, most moderators aren't big into creating new content for games. We're too busy working here on the forum.

 

[noobermenschen]

I think you mean "Modders." While I have some good ideas, most moderators aren't big into creating new content for games. We're too busy working here on the forum.

I'm sure your memes are inspiring to all.

 

[stjern]

Some more things to list:

-Amphibious tanks
-London Naval treaty

I hope they take more, it saves everyone time and makes the game better.

 

[elektrizikekswerk]

If you check into it, you would see that PDS would have preferred a different solution as well. They said at the time that they went with the whole 'impassible provinces' (borders actually, but close enough) because they couldn't get the solution they preferred (and were working on for most of that patch) to work, so they kinda had to borrow (and modify because they actually had access to the code) the less elegant (but working) solution produced by the NML.

I know that - I participated in that discussion

/edit: But as workarounds and "temporary" solutions go and being a professional software developer by myself I know by experience that such "temporary" solutions oftentimes (not always, of course) never get replaced by a proper solution because "it works". At least the proper solution gets placed in the to-do-list with a very low priority. So I'm sceptical if we ever will see this proper solution unless some dev makes it in his spare time.

 

[BaddoSpirito]

I think it would be better if Paradox focuses on stuff modders can't do like fixing bugs and broken core mechanics (like naval warfare, convoy routing and supply system) and improving AI. There isn't really any reason to waste time on focus trees and such which modders have already done. They can't really sell DLC only fixing bugs and mechanics from a marketing perspective so "stealing" content from mods is probably what's best for everyone.

 

[Louella]

I don't remember if impassible province borders, or impassable provinces, existed in the earliest versions of HOI4.
I also don't know the specifics of how the No Mans Land mod did things.

I vaguely remember some mod or other (Not No Mans Land, a different one) using the "demilitarised zone" method to create impassible areas (that could be removed by events).

 

[Kadanz]

I don't remember if impassible province borders, or impassable provinces, existed in the earliest versions of HOI4.
I also don't know the specifics of how the No Mans Land mod did things.

I vaguely remember some mod or other (Not No Mans Land, a different one) using the "demilitarised zone" method to create impassible areas (that could be removed by events).

NML removed the tags from the states, making it literally no mans land. lol
I can vaguely recall playing around with demilitarised zones to accomplish the same thing, but I believe there were some shenanigans going on that made it a not very elegant sollution.

 

[Fulmen]

NML removed the tags from the states, making it literally no mans land. lol
I can vaguely recall playing around with demilitarised zones to accomplish the same thing, but I believe there were some shenanigans going on that made it a not very elegant sollution.

NML also drew white lines in the provinces.bmp map file to create impassable "provinces" in the Himalayas and other areas. Something that caused CTDs when dragging the cursor over them whilst having a navy selected. This "white line" province lacked assigned regions to it, which was the cause of the CTDs.

PDX introduced new coding specifically for impassable terrain when they put NML Africa into the game, allowing us modders to no longer worry about CTDs with impassable terrain.

There was a couple of other mods that tried using demilitarised zones instead, but it was ugly and, like you said, not elegant.

HoI4's impassable terrain is still much less elegant, flexible and realistic than HoI3's is. It also messes up battleplans (try making the Pripet Marshes impassable for instance). Something that sadly probably won't change.

 

[Riftwalker]

idk why people are coming off so hot under the collar about this. I am trying to get a gauge of how paradox goes about the development of content. Particularly the generation and implementation of said Ideas in various aspects. Paradox has shown great interest via social media of several mods. Many of which a few bits and pieces inspires around new or refined systems and pathways that so happen to make their way into the game. I ain’t trying to make this a legality thing or even a originality aspect. Only that I see a lot of alignments coming from mods.

Sure I do take issue in how closely some of this stuff lines up to one another. But it doesn’t seem that egregious to point it out. The devs give a lot of tools to mods to make stuff so it is only natural to see stuff transition over. I just want to be sure paradox isn’t overlooking the fine tuning elements because they know they can rely on mods to hopefully address it to some degree “that seems acceptable idea” and then boom it pops up a few months later.

Ultimately a good idea is a good idea. But having It come from paradox at least for me has a lot more value to it. So seeing this trend occur continuously kinda degrades that value to me a bit. It’s like paying for a meal by a prestigious cook but it turns out it was your neighbor that made it instead. Again kinda cheapens it a bit in expectation.

ultimately, this is a WW2 game, with a specific historical time period, so to see mods and the game developers both overlapping, isn't surprising. like most of your examples are the devs making pretty clear iterations to make the game more of the WW2 alt-history simulator that many people take it for and because of how clear of an interation they are, people have made mods for them.

 

[hkrommel]

Honestly unless something is expressly taken and they give credit, or it’s something completely unique/obvious, I’m a bit hesitant to accuse them of taking things. It’s not really some shocking innovation to include naval treaties that Paradox wouldn’t have come up with had it not been for mods, they’re working off of history too.