Development Diary #9 - 10th of December 2008

[Manziel]

As for the 500 tank army, that seems like a very expensive garrison with this system, since you wouldn't be able to move it far from the capital without going out of supply. I believe that one thing that Johan implied is that there is a maximum amount of supplies that you can push to a province in a single day. And that is probably way less than what 500 divisions need (not to mention that it will take forever to reach them in the depths of Russia).

The question is whether this army can even be supplied 2 provinces away. If all supplies are moving from the capital (as the diary states) the neighbouring provinces of the capital will soon be overloaded. I hope, somebody has though about this possible bottleneck

 

[Aidan]

Amazing ideas, love the new supply design.

Can IC wealthy nations build something like a mulberry harbour to help with invasions?

 

[unmerged(10977)]

Great!

A "realistic" model of Logistics is very important in order to simulate warfare so I really like the new concept.

I specifically liked the part below. It takes TIME to logistically prepare for an land offensive and you can detect the build-up.


"When it comes to the actual supply itself the most important thing to remember is that supply lags, how many supplies a province asks for is based on how many it needed yesterday. Thus your ability to simply mass units for an offensive is limited by the fact that it will take time for your supply network to adjust. Since this request then needs to ripple back down through the supply network, you need time to prepare your troops for an offensive. This in turn gives the enemy a better chance to detect and prepare for it via intelligence."

 

[mib]

Eh, not too thrilled with this new system. It is an improvement over HOI2, but not much of one. It makes no sense for supplies to somehow be miraculously all produced in the capital, and have to inch their way to the units. Encircled industrial areas can and did provide supplies to military units there. I would suggest that each IC-unit produce some supplies (and oil resource produce fuel) which are given to the units nearest to them, until they are all used up or have leftovers, in which case it is delivered to the capital and moved out to needy areas.

 

[Katzmarek]

I'm very excited ...this is just so great.

-I love the map: Spain is has so much detail... it'll greatly improve the civil war experience, or maybe an ahistorical blitzkrieg by a third power. Africa also has exactly the level of detail it deserves.

-I love the supply chains/network ...it should give so much more depth to commerce raiding at sea or cutting land troops from supply.


... Every developer diary was genius, so far ...if you go on like that, i will have to give up my studies, when the game is released

 

[Corelli]

I am absolutely thrilled with the logistics/supply system I am hearing about! Everyone else has gushed and mentioned specific things they like so I won't repeat them but the whole thing is looking great.

9 months away (give or take), I hope can last. :wacko:

 

[Alexander Seil]

Eh, not too thrilled with this new system. It is an improvement over HOI2, but not much of one. It makes no sense for supplies to somehow be miraculously all produced in the capital, and have to inch their way to the units. Encircled industrial areas can and did provide supplies to military units there. I would suggest that each IC-unit produce some supplies (and oil resource produce fuel) which are given to the units nearest to them, until they are all used up or have leftovers, in which case it is delivered to the capital and moved out to needy areas.

Johan states that cutting off a nation's capital from the rest of the nation won't cut off everything else (or, at least, he said they have a plan for it).

Now, for the rest - perhaps you could provide a ready example of where military supplies were manufactured in an isolated pocket long enough to sustain a corps-sized force?

The only problem that could arise is with places like India, that have a lot of IC yet need to be supplied from London. For a solution, see my India thread.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Here is an example of the logistics mapmode, where you can see how the supply networks in France are going, while you also see the convoys going to and from France proper, depicted with arrows.

Looks like you still have alot of work left to make the system work. I can see a division close to the western african shore that seems to draw supplies 1500km straight through the desert from Tunis (probably because its a fewer number of provinces compared to the shore route). Does supply routes consider real distance or just number of provinces + infrastructure?

The supplys run should either run along the railway close to the shore or prefferably from a separate convoy to the port 100km away (Rabat or Casablanca) in the next province.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Looks like you still have alot of work left to make the system work. I can see a division close to the western african shore that seems to draw supplies 1500km straight through the desert from Tunis (probably because its a fewer number of provinces compared to the shore route). Does supply routes consider real distance or just number of provinces + infrastructure?

The supplys run should either run along the railway close to the shore or prefferably from a separate convoy to the port 100km away (Rabat or Casablanca) in the next province.

It's already been said that it's drawing supplies both from Casablanca and Tiaret...

Actually, that supply line is two - one running from Tiaret to Morocco, and the other one running to Tunis. There's also a convoy coming into Tunis, so it's a dual supply source situation there too.

As for considering real distance, obviously it does - it's been said that supplies get pushed daily. Which presumably means there is only so many provinces you can push them through in one day.

 

[Devout]

I think you might see some unusual supply situations due to troop movement. So in Johan's example, it could be that the troop moved from Algiers (getting supplied from Algiers). At a certain point in the movement, it became easier to supply via Casablanca and so supply transitioned over to the port. But even after there was a transition, there still lagged behind 10 provinces that had supplies for the unit. So do those supplies continue on to the unit? Stay where they are? Or return to Algiers? I think thats why you see a unit with multiple supply paths.

Just a thought

 

[crazy canuck]

So I am guessing that cities/cross road towns will have high infrastructure or higher infrastructure making them strategic targets without the need for artificial devices like victory points and such.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I think you might see some unusual supply situations due to troop movement. So in Johan's example, it could be that the troop moved from Algiers (getting supplied from Algiers). At a certain point in the movement, it became easier to supply via Casablanca and so supply transitioned over to the port. But even after there was a transition, there still lagged behind 10 provinces that had supplies for the unit. So do those supplies continue on to the unit? Stay where they are? Or return to Algiers? I think thats why you see a unit with multiple supply paths.

Just a thought

Or maybe the Casablanca convoy is insufficient to keep the unit permanently supplied? It could easily be just 1 ship running, since OOBs aren't done yet anyway, so presumably nations don't have convoys yet.

 

[Alex_brunius]

It's already been said that it's drawing supplies both from Casablanca and Tiaret...

Still seems like alof of wasted supplies to carry supplies 1500km through 20 or 40% infranstructure at best when all divisions are stationed so close to the shores. Since carrying supplies have a tax and convoys probably won't convoys should always be preffered when possible.

As for considering real distance, obviously it does - it's been said that supplies get pushed daily. Which presumably means there is only so many provinces you can push them through in one day.

How can you tell this? To me its pretty obvious that the AI choose the "shortest" route in number of provinces since the AI is drawing routes inland through larger provinces and not along the "easier" shore route where we should have higher infrastructure values.

If they are still using the sea "supply" system from HoI2 dark green equals passive route (an optional route not in use atm) While light green would mean a active route in use. Thus Tunis and Algers get supplied by convoys but not the western most division that is drawing supplies through the entire desert at the moment.

If the supply system could make perfect judgements only 4 regions would need to carry supplies activly (light green) in africa reducing waste tremendously.

 

[Windmolen]

This will also mean an entire different game in China and Asia in general. Japan will have serious difficulties advancing through all the low infra provinces there. Stretching the limit and overextending itself are now serious risks. Excellent!

 

[Alexander Seil]

Still seems like alof of wasted supplies to carry supplies 1500km through 20 or 40% infranstructure at best when all divisions are stationed so close to the shores. Since carrying supplies have a tax and convoys probably won't convoys should always be preffered when possible.

How can you tell this? To me its pretty obvious that the AI choose the "shortest" route in number of provinces since the AI is drawing routes inland through larger provinces and not along the "easier" shore route where we should have higher infrastructure values.

If they are still using the sea "supply" system from HoI2 dark green equals passive route (an optional route not in use atm) While light green would mean a active route in use. Thus Tunis and Algers get supplied by convoys but not the western most division that is drawing supplies through the entire desert at the moment.

How do we know how many ships are in that Casablanca convoy? There could easily be one ship that's not sufficient to supply the division, which is why it's dragging the supply through Algeria.

On the other hand, Algeria is not all dunes (not the northern part, anyway), and I wouldn't be surprised if the provinces it's dragging those supplies through have a reasonably decent infrastructure.

 

[unmerged(67185)]

France got more IC then Hoi2

 

[druss_]

Shoudn'n there be possibility to supply units not only from capital but also from other large cities and industrial areas? It is unrealistic to stock all supplies in the capital and than to destrebute them from there. For example, USA for sure did not supply all units from Washington!!!

Fo example army supplies, like shells, made by Germany in Protektorat Böhmen und Mähren didn't go all the way to Berlin and then from Berlin to eastern front... that would be ridiculous and inefficient.

In Berlin weren't huge supply depots filled with tanks, airplanes etc...

And then there is a fuel issue. There should be marked fuel factories and fuel depos on the map and troops should be supplied from there. Why shouldn't there be for example a possibility to capture Soviet oil fields & fuel factories, transport workers to these factories and then supply unites from there? Becouse, who would transport all oil from there back to Germany, then make fuel from it and than transport it all the way back, more than thousand miles, to the front?

 

[Alex_brunius]

How do we know how many ships are in that Casablanca convoy? There could easily be one ship that's not sufficient to supply the division, which is why it's dragging the supply through Algeria

We don't know 100% for sure. But since its Jan 1936 and all countries with troops overseas start with enough convoys to supply all their troops in HoI2 and they clearly have some convoys we can draw some conclutions. My resonable guess would be that the convoys are just lazy Or that they for some reason are afraid to pass Gibraltar (perhaps those rules for passage are not finished yet).

Remember that this screenshot is supposed to show us how awesome the "automated" AI is handeling supplies too, well im not convinced.... yet

Perhaps its only a remnant of HoI2 where land routes were always preffered since they were free. Now I hope we will see the opposite. Convoys wherever its possible and safe.

Something awesome would be if countries like Norway/Belgium/Netherlands that have huge merchant marines could rent convoys for cash to other countries in need automatically.

 

[Alexander Seil]

The German example isn't as bad, since supplies presumably appear in the capital without having to be transported.

The big problem is actually the US West Coast. The US will pay a lot of supply to move it across the continent from Washington!

 

[unmerged(41291)]

Will the provinces that are near rivers, or have rivers within their borders, recieve an infrastructure bonus? Maybe a 5%, 10%? It would seem "unfair" not to do so, since the control of the waterways was a crucial point in the logistic/strategic aspect of many battles/theatres (Leningrad, Stalingrad).

It would be a shame to have, say, Leningrad suffering from a very low supply transport efficienty just because it's adjacent provinces are "swamps" - while IRL, many of it's supplies got through via waterways (or frozen waterways, for that matter).